Zolin v. Klesov. Ending Detective

Zolin v. Klesov. Ending Detective
Zolin v. Klesov. End of the detective.

First of all, do not think that unbridled temper (as a result - sometimes inadequate) AA Klesov finally Zolina provoke a confrontation before the end of life. Objective facts and conclusions, evidence will inevitably be used. A mental state of the opponent - it's not my profile. http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/1757

A. Klyosov has a lot of real research advances. Himself their supporters, and to support. But on the part of his argument, as an objective researcher (not necessarily Ph.D., professor) feel justified doubts. Dear A. Klyosov, biting the bit, believes that some kind of Zolin (and similar) shall not doubt in all the constructions of "the genius of DNA genealogy" (that's unfamiliar Klesov "newbies" can doubt everything, "genius" for the time being and until the time of tender and vrazumitelen with them if they do not persist in their reasonable doubt). Okay, we will not fly in the face of degrees and titles, but just compare the basic objective facts (of course not a lot of abuse, which tends to AA Klyosov).

What is the rightness of human population genetics (including DNA genealogy as a method)?
Genetic lines of modern humans can be traced specifically to mothers and fathers (subsequent generations) at a depth of tens of thousands of years. At the same haplogroups (and their historical haplotypes) allow us to consistently narrow and precise terms of those or other relatives, to make relatively accurate predictions about the probable inclusion of these ancestors (ancestors) in particular early (ancient) ethnic groups. Isolated regions of the ancient remains of the DNA can make evidence-binding identified haplogroups specific archaeological cultures (levels, horizons, etc.), which reduces the arbitrariness in the bindings of these ethnic cultures. In fundamental terms - it is generally accepted level of evidence of population genetics. A collision followed by versions refine the results, evidence and other scientific processes, which are inevitable for the deepening of knowledge.

Unfortunately, as the unruly boy (==== here sorry, had suffered: PZ) Klyosov cheerfully polish (up to a clear and demonstrative reputational) Zolina on the pages of the Bulletin of DNA genealogy site rodstvo.ru  http://  . But his response Zolin here does not. While all of his information attacks on Zolina on the pages of the Zolina online until commas and grammar errors are presented. Such policies are humiliating your opponent - an indicator of scientific objectivity, the researcher (===" byaki "in this case)? I doubt very much. And this is clearly not a positive characterizes the distinguished chemist, a biologist. On the Internet you have inquiries about Zolin could be and to visit. Even using the characteristics of his opponents.

U.S. current information and control almost any person serving in any country in the world. Zolin respect for the U.S., but not great reverence for "the achievements of America." It is clear that support from the structures of the United States it is difficult to expect. Included AA Klyosov in some pro-US policy toward P. Zolin - I do not know. But by hacking humiliation Zolina suspicion of such inclusion should occur. There is a siey hacking and elements promasonskogo behavior (U.S. universities that are infected), where in relation to the "profane" is the rule: Our truth - a lie, and we lie - the truth.

I emphasize again that a number of assumptions and calculations AA Klesov still tends to be an objective truth that is close to the truth.

What's the problem?

First - banal. A. Klyosov and his colleagues are prone to typos, suschestvennym.http: / / www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/443 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/1360 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/541 etc. Guess who is not inclined to them, especially in polemics. But these errors are present in the academic edition of Journal of DNA genealogy. Can result in an abundance. Sam A. Klyosov and his colleagues will do so much better. Please list all the result of typos in one of the editions of the Bulletin. If something is missing, try to add. Ignoring the spelling mistakes and errors Klesov reserves, under any fair comments from the opponents a chance to refer those comments to the "little things" - in fact, elements of fundamental importance for the real story.
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/443 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/1360 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/385 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/04/1407 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/03/607 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/1110 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/541 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/10/526 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/09/932 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/18/1099  etc.

Second - statistically. Who in Science does not know: There are three kinds of lies: lies, blatant lies and statistics. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ложь, naglaya_lozh_i_statistika . A. Klyosov and his supporters do not realize that hard to support this thesis proved over the centuries. Statistics mean nothing until it is confirmed at all levels of calculations objective natural data. Currently there are no definitive criteria for reliable statistics righteousness AA Klesov and his associates. It is only natural study of the remains of different periods can contribute to the statistical decomposed objective scientific korrektirovki. http: / / www.proza.ru/2010/12/01/644 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/11/27/ 215  and so on

Third - bind to the archeology and linguistics. On the Nostratic level with the likelihood of various "population-necks" might operated a rule - "one haplogroup - one Nostratic dialect. About 12 - 10 thousand years ago lived on the planet for several million people, and by the beginning of our era - and 200 - 300 million families have already developed a language supports at least a few male and female haplogroup. A. Klyosov and his colleagues often "rule of the Paleolithic" pull on the Mesolithic and - especially - in the Neolithic. Chances are good that it is fundamentally wrong. Hence - for example - and the wrong version of that aria are only carriers of haplogroup R1a1 (excluding other male and female HGs). Yes, the media R1a1 could be leaders (one of the leaders) of the process, but indoevropeystvo explicitly created not they alone. Comments on the archaeological bindings rightly done, LS Klein http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/443 ; http://www.proza.ru/avtor/zolinpm1&book=2 # 2, etc.

Fourth - anthropological straining. Clearly, between Haplogroups and anthropological character of people have relationships. But no large-scale studies of human remains on Haplogroups in connection with various anthropological characteristics. Klyosov AA same - based on their "statistics" - is already inclined to global generalizations such as "To a large extent, this skull is preserved to this day among carriers haplogroups I1 and I2 (mainly dolichocephaly), and haplogroups R1a1 and R1b1 (mainly brachycephaly and mezotsefaly), although some dynamics of change in cranial index was characterized by one and the other in the course of many millennia. "
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444  All the remains had become like men.
Unproved anthropological stretches his abundance.
Yes, he is aware of this "Let's start with the fact that for most studied and summarized in Table skulls haplogroup their carriers is unknown to many and will remain
unknown. There can only assume, more or less
rightly, that we try to do in this paper. And when its tension-criticized assumptions, breaks curses - ignorant, absolutely do not understand and t.p.A what is understood? "Haplogroups skulls are unknown ..."

Fifth - the patriarchal version. DNA genealogy, already in name, must take into account the mtDNA genealogy. A. Klyosov looks a lot of excuses to not do this. And for the real history of this position is unscientific, no multi-millennial history without women. P. M. Zolin. (The essence of the comments) In connection with the multidimensionality millennia of history should be carefully considered and the role of haplogroups women, for example - in the early formation of languages and ethnicities. http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/343 
A. Klyosov (The essence of the answer), after the usual slang (there is still myagkovato) in talks with "interested klutz" - "wrong note", "impression on the layman," it's like to compete on the UCI to impose that they forget of Civil Aviation, "comments dilettante character" (etc.) - still said very important to me.
"If the Y-chromosome DNA haplotypes operate its hundreds of years, and with good accuracy, it operates only mtDNA millennia. For a "genealogy" is virtually useless. But at distances of tens to hundreds of thousands of years, mtDNA has the advantage compared to the Y-chromosome genealogy. So again, everything has its time and place. Sentence such as "women forget again," without specifying the tasks for which it is - it's not very sensibly. It is the same as the competition for ECU to impose that they forget about the civil aviation unfairly overlooked, not respect, do not appreciate the role and importance of our falcons.
So what can chemical kinetics and bring in mtDNA, but, again, to solve other problems. " http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/343 
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Химическая_кинетика
P. M. Zolin.
It is about the period of European settlement of tens of thousands of years ago, the formation of Caucasians are at the junction (due, etc.) with Mongoloids and separation donostraticheskih and Nostratic languages in later language families - Indo-European, Finno-Ugric peoples, Turks, etc. "So it is possible (and for me, and need, although this method does not possess - PZ) chemical kinetics and mtDNA bring ...." Or any other, but accurate "kinetics".

For 15 - 10 thousand years ago in the European part of Russia even moved a few carriers of male and female haplogroups, which are presented in Russians and now http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/157 
Women's Russians H 36%,, V-4%, T-6%, J - 7%, K - 5%, U - 8%, X - 3%. Etc.
Men, for example, only in Russian (all great Russians) R1a 51% R1b - 7% I1a -5%; I1b - 12%; N3 - 22%; E3b1-3% (something like this in the light of Ukrainians and Belarusians, but taking into account N3 - 16% less than the proportion of R1a). And so on
http://www.demushkin.com/content/articles/291/2497.html  etc.
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гаплогруппы 
Some women's haplogroup, according to specialists, have appeared in European Russia early in the male 55 to 50 thousand years ago (the male line of that time have not survived). The history of these haplogroups soundly reflected in the Wikipedia (Russian, English, German, etc.; translations on Automata search engines, the adjustment within the meaning of). http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444 

Sixth - the arbitrariness of ethnic bindings (see also 3 - 5). Probable Paleolithic rule - "one haplogroup - one Nostratic dialect" (one language) - almost no effect early in the Holocene. And then begins the formation of modern language families. This Diocese of linguists. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ностратические_языки
Virtually all the language families of the Holocene - the products of interaction of carriers at least a few male and female haplogroup. http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/27/415 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/08/30/787 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/05/228 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/157 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/674 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/05/1217 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/343 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/06/1419 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/09/09/444  etc.
At associates AA Klesov ethnic groups, in fact, often are carriers of the largest ethnic group in the male haplogroups (without the participation of women). R1b has long been an indicator of some Turks, though recently there has been a departure "klesovtsev" from such a rigid uniqueness. Haplogroup R1a1 - in science Klesov - an indicator of formation and migration of early Indo-Europeans and Aryans. Estimated persistently fed "big strokes" as proven. And it inevitably turns away from the relatively productive method of many researchers. On the other hand, we have observed a wide range of haplogroups in the formation of early Jewish http://forum.vgd.ru/177/23317/0.htm 
The apparent similar spectrum in a number of other early ethnicities AA Klesov as not particularly interested.

Seventh - the fear of natural data. Statistics AA Klesov based on composed not of databases and inevitably includes only currently known haplotypes (though they are hundreds of thousands, and - probably - and millions, hence my frequent and doubts about the validity of choice of the baseline haplotype; if all currently known cases included).
But in the real history of acting and supports a set of haplotypes, the descendants (also participants in this event) have died at different times to the present day did not survive. According to statistics from AA Klesov carriers of different haplogroups often withdraw entirely from those or other places (such as R1a c Russian Plain in the Urals and then in India), and then sometimes coming back. But in real history, some carriers' migratory haplogroup "and" unpreserved haplogroups, "including women, will inevitably remain in their original locations. And amplifying the natural study of ancient remains of this reality is increasingly detected. A. Klyosov angrily notes that these alleged studies "provide little information" http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/04/1407. In fact, they are terribly informative. And, in particular, many aggressive krushat tale "guru of DNA genealogy."



An article in the paper

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ + +
A. Klyosov decided to add fuel to the fire.

Re: Wait another defeat From Anatole Klyosov <aklyosov@gmail.com> add
Who Zolin Peter <peter.zolin@yandex.ru>
In addition, when A; A
January 13, 2011 at 5:57

Leave your impotent rhetoric to yourself. Do not demonstrate severe inferiority complex.
 
I'm actually much more interesting. You do not know about almost anything. Find at least a recent issue of Der Spiegel and read. I have an interesting life, to put it mildly. But the point is not the point. You and your kind and petty petty mentality does not understand that we are opening a fantastic new and exciting area of science and life. And you Snuffles about typos, about some very trivial detail. We are currently working on major strokes, and even at this level opens up a new scheme of awareness of our history. And with my level you - some kind of pathetic pygmies. Well, do you not understand? As far as the Soviet power corrupted "low voltage", which you represent, that they can even think to compare themselves with high voltage? (======= More evidence that AA Klyosov still suffers from "delusions of grandeur": PZ)

Stop fooling around, and take its modest place in the commentator. If you'll behave modestly and quietly, I'll let you speak, but only within your competence (====== petrify from such a sense of humor: PZ).

I speak clearly? AK

================================ Tried to accurately answer

Anatoly A., helpless is your rhetoric (with an abundance of grubyatiny instead of arguments). Perhaps this is due to you and an inferiority complex (and probably other complexes) than he ever suffered. And his life happy. You have invented for themselves inadequately Zolin.

If you have success - and happy for you. Well, you - in your opinion - opens tremendous new and exciting area of science and life (time will tell). However, while "working with large strokes (==== often aided and feces? PZ), and already at this level opens up a new scheme of awareness of our history." Similar schemes, although not associated with haplogroup historiography knows the abyss. Beginning with the anthropological.

And then, unfortunately, "raspaltsovka"

"And you Snuffles about typos, about some very trivial detail ... and with my level you are - some sort of pathetic pygmies. Well, do you not understand? As far as the Soviet power corrupted "low voltage", which you represent, that they can even think to compare themselves with high voltage?
Stop fooling around, and take its modest place in the commentator. If you'll behave modestly and quietly, I'll let you speak, but only within your competence. I speak clearly? AK.

And so once again we return to the top of my remarks. "Napoleon complex".
Hence, looking at your ceiling, you imagining "a pathetic pygmy." He is "playing the fool" (you?). Soviet power corrupted such "low voltage", "that they can even think to compare themselves with high-voltage", "High" (?) You like (you do not accidentally lock the chain, not short-circuit).

Without you, if necessary, speak, speak and tell about enough technical competence. And you and your team-mates, but primary education, which competences in archeology and anthropology, linguistics and cultural studies, a number of other sciences, which teaches you safely from the ceiling?
If women are excluded from their haplogroup is obviously a lot of any unsubstantiated exaggeration of male haplogroups of the historical realities that stink bloopers "big strokes", etc. - All the petty details, then the DNA genealogy - as real science - need different strokes and artists (but not arrogant mediocre painters). Maybe they will.

I guess what I'm saying is quite clear. PZ

=============
Perhaps, for a given material will yet return. But a lot of the comments I have already been published - and remain without clear answers, AA Klesov and his associates.

http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/443 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/1360 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/08/385 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/04/1407 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/03/607 ; http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/1110 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/02/541 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/10/526 ;
http://www.proza.ru/2010/12/09/932 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/18/1099  etc.

Here are the usual examples of criticism of temper Klesov Internet
Arkady Kalmanovich
Petach Tikva, Israel - at 2010-07-22 03:40:44 EDT
The article makes a strange impression.
It seems that the author uses two studies to promote their theories. "DNA genealogy is positioned as a separate field of knowledge which has come to the same conclusions as the discussion paper. All anything, but "DNA genealogy" looks like a one-man business: none other than the author himself is not quoted. Unrecognized genius? Everything is possible. But as a columnist other studies - the choice is clearly unfortunate.

Boris Altshuler, E.
Berlin, Germany - at 2010-07-21 14:50:29 EDT
Dear Mr. Klyosov,
I read with interest your article. Already in 2006, Dr. Doron Behar (Dr. Doron Behar - The Genographic Project) of the University Hospital, Rambam in Haifa, Israel announced the passage of genetic research, according to which Ashkenazi Jews, in my view is somewhat controversial, is derived from four foremothers. A year later, in 2007 published a work of an American journalist John Intyre (Entire, Jon: Abraham `s Children - Abraham; s Children: Race, Identity, and the DNA of the Chosen Peaple, 2007), compiled the results of several international today generally accepted bulk of genetic studios Ashkenazi Jews, in light of discussions which are especially German readers passionately interested in one question the analysis of DNA mitohondralnoy Ashkenazi Jews: with a time of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from German women?

Because it is relevant to your publication, we can assume that the process of inter-ethnic contacts has at least 2,000 years, ie since the time of the German Travel yutungskih Scythians and almani / Alamanov, translated from the Hebrew "widowers". About 40% of the ancestors of modern Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the median (and "Khazar"?) Women, which meant in the Rhine region at the time of Charlemagne and the Great Steppe.
This story has striking parallels with the Biblical story of Ruth Moabitess, among other things, great-grandmother of biblical King David. According to this information somewhere in 80% of today's Ashkenazi Jews today are descendants of the "Route" from the Rhine and the Great Steppe. Unfortunately your current article, I have not received a clear answer to the question of the genomes of Ashkenazi women. In addition, I would like to ask: what with the genomes of "Khazar" in southern Russia and the "accident" in Central and Southeastern Europe? After all, their graves have long been archaeologically investigated, and the definition of genomes not be easy.
Your comments on the Finno-Finns I was somewhat surprised, since, as far as I know, prior to 2006 were conducted extensive research "of the genome Russian", which showed that 60% -70% (?) "Russian" threat of DNA are -Finnish nature. This information is provided by the Internet in some publications, such as nesobrazuetsya with your findings on the genetics of the Finno-Finns.
Read your article with great pleasure. From my point of view would have been desirable lisch possibly even more clear conclusions. This applies to the rest of your already published works.

About the fact that 60% -70% (?) "Russian" DNA is not Finno-Ugric nature, support the AA Klesov. But here's the likelihood of deeper historical roots of the Ashkenazi Jews and that "DNA genealogy" often looks like a one-man business: no one else but himself (and hastily sprodutsirovannyh companions), the author often does not cite - is a harsh truth (with a tendency to self-criticism, the emergence of facts A . A. Klesov lately).

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http://www.proza.ru/2011/01/12/1757