Ashkuzy you my Ashkenazi

Ashkuzy you my Ashkenazi
Peter Zolin 2
Ashkuzy you my Ashkenazi ...

Refine the translation of the original http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/18/1099
The dominant version of the origin of Ashkenazi Jews in the Middle Ages from Germany, probably does not account for the real origins of the age-forming Ashkenazi on the lands of Great Scythia (now the state of the lower Danube to Siberia).

Essence. According to my comprehensive data, P. Zolina, the ancestors of the Jews (approximately the time of Peleg and Reu, "nartsev hedgehog are the words") in the 3 millennium BC partly merged with Scythians (Ashkenazi Bible), to some extent had the right and called them. http://www.proza.ru/2010/07/28/367
http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/17/372  http://www.trinitas.ru/rus/doc/0211/002a/02110009.htm
http://www.proza.ru/2009/05/28/262  http://www.organizmica.org/archive/703/zskm.shtml
http://www.trinitas.ru/rus/doc/0211/002a/02110015.htm 
http://www.rususa.com/news/news.asp-nid-15563-catid-5
Christian sources acknowledge that the time to develop "skifstvo" as an ideology (heresy). Clearly - this version. But the confusion of the early ancestors of the Scythians and the Jews are not linguistic, ethnogonic partly anthropological, archaeological and general historical contraindications. Then in shaping Ashkenazi must consider the likely Scythian-Slavic trail to a depth of approximately 4 - 5 thousand years.
Opposing ideologies of hate.

Many nations are created with the active involvement of the holders at least a few male and female haplogroup. Supposedly "Semitic" haplogroups in reality are Haplogroups and Indo-Europeans and Turks, the peoples of the Caucasus (which does not make those religio-cultural and anthropological Semites). Other haplogroups lacking and "Semites", hence the specific haplogroups often can not be an indicator of only one particular ethnic group. On the confusion of the concepts of "ethnicity" - "the people" - "tribe," see Petrukhin, VJ, Rajewski DS
Essays on the history of the peoples of Russia in antiquity and the early Middle Ages (2004)
C.7 - 16. http://rutracker.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1856527


Let us listen to stakeholders.

"... The Jews of Central and Eastern Europe and their descendants are called Ashkenazi - the old name of Germany in Hebrew - Ashkenaz - since the ancestors of most of them once lived in Germany (R. Semyuels. Along the Paths of Jewish history. M., 1993, p. . 223). (But ashkuzy-ishkuzy etc. are known at least Assyrians: PZ)

That is to say, today's formal Jewish identification. But the fact there is a rich prehistory. Here's what you can read in the Torah about the mysterious country and people Ashkenaz.

"These are the descendants of Noah's sons - Shem, Ham and Japheth: their children were born after the flood (there is a listing them, among them the son of Japheth - Gomer - SG). The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, and Rifat, and Togarma "(the Torah, Genesis, 10:1-3).

Absolutely "disagrees" with the Torah Christian Bible says the following.

"That generations of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham and Japheth. After the flood, were born to them (listed children, including the son of Japheth, we know Homer - SG). The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Rifat and Togarmah "(Bible, Genesis 10:1-3).

Therefore, Ashkenaz, Ashkenaz or - the great-grandson in November through his son Japhet (Japheth), from which the general, all biblical Japhetic (European) nations, and through his grandson Homer. Ashkenaz on the biblical tradition was for himself and his descendants the land for resettlement somewhere in the North. Where were these lands? Generally accepted view that these were the lands of Europe.

Bible Encyclopedia of 1891 says the opinion of Christian scholars in this regard.

"Ashkenaz - grandson of Japheth, and probably the ancestor of the peoples askenazskih which inhabited the country, which lies on the eastern and southeastern shores of the Black Sea. However, the exact position of the country is unknown. Some recent writers believe that this nation has given its name Scandia or Scandinavia "(vol. 1, p. 64).
http://www.sem40.ru/evroplanet/emigration/19794/ (version, which makes sense in the least movement of the carrier number of male and female haplogroup to the north a few thousand years ago: PZ here add a few views, including and their

http://www.trinitas.ru/rus/doc/0211/008a/02111111.htm
http://www.cirota.ru/forum/view.php?subj=50178&order=asc  (turnover)
http://www.gazetangn.narod.ru/archive/ngn0315/skif.html
http://bolshoyforum.org/forum/index.php?action=printpage ; topic = 12535.0
http://www.trinitas.ru/rus/doc/0211/002a/02110009.htm
http://www.russika.ru/termin.asp?ter=2580
http://scripturetext.com/genesis/10-3.htm  etc. )

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Etymology polietnonima SKIF (self, "cleaved") is now associated with dozens of languages and even online trudnoobozriama.
"Interpretations of the meaning of the word" skiff "in linguistics is very much (enough to attract and Internet search engines). Slavyanovedy sometimes they are from the Slavic word" skit "(with the meaning of" wandering ", able to survive" hermit "in solitude, subsistence farming). For any linguistic disputes must be admitted that for distant ancestors, fellow Russians (almost without exception, the ancient ancestors of the present people of Russia) use the word "skiff" is such a sense of "skit-wanderer" is justified. To control the great and plentiful land with first post-glacial time, many communities of the chronicle of the Commonwealth, "Russ, and all ye chyud yazytsi" were constantly moving over very long distances. Culture Pit-Comb pottery, stone axes, Seima-turbinskoy bronze and later convincingly confirm the "Scythian trace" of world history at least since the Mesolithic and Neolithic.
http://www.trinitas.ru/rus/doc/0211/008a/02111043.htm
Italian "skiff" means "slut, slut."
&
Thieves' cannot dictionary
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Y Z Skiff
Bpodyaga http://mirslovarei.com/content_jar/skif-5505.html
Fasmer refrained from Scythian
Keyword: skit,
Nearest Etymology: the genus. Sec-aґ, russk.-tsslav. skyt, skit (Pandects Nikon, etc.), skytrnin "recluse" (Izborn. Svyatosl. 1076; see Shear. III, 375 et seq.). From the Greek. SkBtij - the name of the desert in Egypt, where he preferred to settle the Greek. monks (cf. Royce, Urspr. d. MЈnchtums 144 and ff.; Busse at Van Wijk, Meґl. Mikkola 348 and ff., yellow, FL, 1876, Vol. 4, 44; Fasmer, Gr.-sl. at . 183). Erroneously produce from the Greek. ўskht »j" ascetic "ўskht» rion "place of origin of asceticism" (Matsenauer, LF 20, 8). Here is Skiґtsky pateriґk "Patericon sketskih hermits in Egypt" (Van Wijk, ibid.)
Pages: 3,640-641
Keyword: wander
Nearest etymology:-ayus, Ukr. skitatisya, al-Russian. skytati camping, serbsk.-tsslav. skytati Xia plan © sqai, Bulg. skiґtam behold, serbohorv. skiґtati cross, ski? that? m ce, words. skiґtati SE, skiґtam SE.
Further etymology: Related Literature. kute † ґti "shake", kutru ° s "spirited" (the latter may be of Slav. hutr "zippy"), al-Isle. skunda "quick clean up, hurry," al-sax. scuddian, OUG scutten "shake, push, etc.-Isle. skyґdir pm "Moon" (poet.), skynda "drive" (Mladenov, 583; Holthausen, Awn. Wb. 259, 261; Aengl. Wb. 284; Uhlenbeck, Aind. Wb. 342).
Pages: 3,641 http://vasmer.narod.ru/p637.htm
According to Herodotus, the ancient Iranians have called the whole Scythia "Saca" (Gerodot.VII 64). Their main tribe, the Royal Scythians, ruled vast lands occupied by this nation as a whole (Gerodot. IV 20), and they called themselves Skolotoi. Oswald Shemereny devotes a full discussion of the etymology of the word Scythian his work "Four old Iranian ethnic names: Scythian - Skudra - Sogdian - Saka." Related words come from-skuza, an ancient Indo-European word for Archer, and, consequently, the Iranian word Ishkuzi = Sagittarius.
http://skifs.ucoz.com/publ/1-1-0-2
Greek etymology. name, unless it is the distortion of any of the native names, leads us to the lyrics. Bowl (skifos), mug, Aeolian. Form: a distinctive affiliation Scythian apparel Herodotus calls the cup that the Scythians wore on his belt. http://www.nashkray.kiev.ua/podi/skifi.html
http://lingvoforum.net/index.php/topic, 11435.480.html
Skiff = cell (initial) - from the words "wander," "wandering," therefore, "Scythians monasteries" - "wanderers" ("nomads"?). New value - a monastic hermitage
http://slovar.kakras.ru/
self-Scythians - cleaved
Keyword: skolotysh
Nearest etymology: "bastard", Skolotnev dityaґ - same arhang. (Dal), skoloґtnaya posuґda "hard razdobytaya, wound dishes. From kolotiґt cf. skolaґchivat denguґ. Erroneous comparison with literature. kafte † ~ "wine", kal ~ sti, kalstu ° "commit offense, contrary to Matsenaueru, LF 20, 13.
Pages: 3,646 http://vasmer.narod.ru/p639.htm http://mirslovarei.com/content_his/SKOLOTY-48518.htm l
http://www.russika.ru/termin.asp?ter=2465
Cleaved - the symbols and protoslavyanstva praslavyanstva. But in the broadest sense - they are symbols of millennia of shared history of all Russians. Exodus Kura Aras, "from Asia - an epic track ethnogenetical origin of northerners from southerners that geneticists indicate about 80 - 160 thousand years in the headwaters of the Nile. Scythians cleaved tried to argue that in terms of civilization, they even "ancient Egyptians". And it was considered worthy of mentioning famous ancient authors, the facts of the works which are abundant in books and textbooks in world history.
History cleaved - is largely the entire history of Russia and its neighbors, absorbing many thousands of names and dates.
Title conformable to the word "cleavage" (School) - School, which may symbolize the special role of education and training for all residents of Great Scythia. See: Geta-Goths, and Wends, etc. We consider the possibility of transformation through the cleaved - skloveny (rannesrenevekovoe from the Byzantines) - Sakaliba (Arabic) - Slaves (with different interpretations). Detail in the book BA Rybakov of Scythia.
While there is no time to go deep into the roots nostratiku skiff-cleavage-sak-askuz

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http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Скифы Marija Gimbutas and her circle of scientists attributed the appearance of ancestors of the Scythians (crop domestication of horses) to 5 - 4 millennium BC. er. According to other versions of these ancestors connect with other cultures. They appear and the descendants of carriers carcass culture of the Bronze Age, who were advancing from the XIV century. BC. er. from the Volga region to the west. Others believe that the main core of the Scythians came thousands of years ago from Central Asia or Siberia and was mixed with the population of the Northern Black Sea (including the territory of Ukraine). Marija Gimbutas ideas extend in the direction of further study the origin of the Scythians.
http://wap.alanla.forum24.ru/?1-11-0-00000002-000-0-0  promotion  Turkic version

We continue to listen to stakeholders.

http://www.sem40.ru/evroplanet/emigration/19794/
Question

Who is designated in Akkadian inscriptions as ashgu'zay, ishku'zay? Correlates it with the name of the Scythian-Persian. "Scoot"? In Hebrew, "Ashkenaz"?

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Exactly. Original form - "Scoot-", where the final "t" - not the usual, and interdental (as English th or dh as in "Maeda / zrose).

Hence, in Akkadian "ashkuzay (initial a - prosthetic, as the Akkadian word may not begin with two consonants, final-value - relativnoe ending, similar to Heb. End" and "so" ashkuzay "- is" a man / People shkuz-metal ", where" shkuz, "is a reflection of the original" Scoot-".

But the Greek here is "The UCC / uth" (via yupsilon and thetu; usual "skiff" - is a secondary pronunciation of the Greek word - "skuth" - a quasi-late "vizantinizirovannom 's manner of modern Hellenists).

Ashkenaz, presumably - the same thing, only mistakenly read / written out the word, replacing the original "vav" with "nun" Similarity tracings. That is, the original stood "ashkuz (ashkvz), instead of Vava in a moment read the nun, turned ashknz, oglasovali as Ashkenaz.

In all cases imeetsyav mean the same thing Scythian education in Azerbaijan (ortokoribantii Median satrapy Herodotus, Sacasa, ie "country of Saks," which. To describe Terry. Azerbaijani later ancient authors).
---------------

1) Is there a relationship between the sac and with (a) the flap?

2) Please tell us about the carriers of this ethnonym to 775 BC
In particular, anyone could (and could a) treat this ethnonym at the end of 2 thousand BC
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About kinship bases sak-and (eh?) Coote - who knows ... Nobody knows the etymology of both words. "Suck" - generalizing the Persian name for a number of nomadic Iranian tribes, including all groups of historical "Scythians" by Herodotus (Saka paradrayya - Black Sea Group, Saka tigrahauda - Azerbaijani and Central Asian groups, enough to know the realities, to see that not all ; http://www.trinitas.ru/rus/doc/0211/008a/02111142.htm ). Its origin is unknown. "Scoot (a) (with interdental-t-) - self-historic" Scythians "by Herodotus (and the original form of the Greek word" skiff "in the real pronunciation of" skyu/uth-). If desired, one could see this as "Scoot (a)" - * "Saku-ta, where-ta - the collective Iranian number, but here's the rub: in this collectively," the one "- the usual" t "and the word 'Scoot "(" Scythian ") - with interdental so ..
Could, of course, in a frozen form, and pronounced wryly, and god knows what there is in these Scoot / itself of the Scythians in East Kazakhstan could be a variation in the phonetics (about Kazakhstan - one of the versions of myths, known to Herodotus, the Scythians - autochthons North Black Sea Region: PZ).

About the fact that up to 775 years. so the point is. that the term "saki" first appears in the inscriptions of the Achaemenid 6 century, the term "Scythians" was first clearly elucidated in Herodotus, Akkadian "ashkuz," first appears in the Assyrian inscriptions of the second quarter of 7 th century. Together, these sources make it possible to reliably reconstruct the history of the Scythians from 8 th century BC, and that's what it was before, nobody knows.
http://www.proza.ru/avtor/zolinpm&book=15  # 15
http://www.proza.ru/avtor/zolinpm&book=10  # 10
http://www.proza.ru/avtor/zolinpm&book=8  # 8, etc.

Generally speaking, from 12 to 8 cc. BC extends a single epoch, when the steppe is occupied by two main groups of Iranian-speaking nomadic tribes (one of the versions on the part of the Saks have the legal rights of the Turks, yes - maybe - and Hungarians). From the Danube to the Volga - the tribes, known as generalizing the name "Cimmerians" (Greek "Kimmer", Akkadian. And Anatolian. "Gamir-') from the Volga to the Syr Darya - tribes known under the settled Iranians generalizing called" round "( turans). Where they lived, "title" Cimmerians, which called the entire Western community, no one knows, maybe in the Ante, "title" tour, which was named the eastern community, lived in this region of Khorezm with surrounding areas. Specifically, whether and on tour, and the Cimmerians (in the broadest sense), known to have lived in the Avesta separately from the tour nomadic Iranians' deep hinterland "steps - sairima (bud. Savromat, Sarmatians) and Dachau - they both seem in the Southern Urals and adjacent areas. With sedentary zones, they had no contact since they were separated from them by a band of Cimmerians and Turanians. (Popular version, but does not affect http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/23/1098 ;
etc.: PZ)

What place in this whole picture took the ancestors of "Scythians" by Herodotus, Massagetae, Arimaspi, issedonov and other Iranian nomadic (too unique version that disregards polyethnicity "Scythians» http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/06/680  ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/157 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/01/12/674 ; http://www.proza.ru/2010/01 / 21/1225 , etc.) known to Herodotus, is unknown. Some of them could enter the area, covered by the generic term "round", someone could exist separately. Hypothetical answer to this question is given below.


(Describes the real situation eight century, but forget all previous archaeological events, partly reflected and written history: PZ)
In 775-725 years. there was an explosion of tribal migrations and breaking in the steppes and the waves of migrations continued until the mid 7 th century, inclusive. The epicenter of resettlement was, according to Herodotus, the Altai, where sat Arimaspi, the first blow on the neighbors and stronuvshimi avalanche. Impulses spread migrations to the east, and west (to the east, in China this era auknulos duvumya incursions of nomads in China - approx. 770, and approx. 650). During the resettlement three tribal unions northern and eastern Kazakhstan - issedony, Scythians-Scoot (= proper Scythians of Herodotus, the Sakas pryamoshapochniki) and split in half massagets, one half of each union withdrew to the south (in the middle lane of the Syr Darya to the Tarim), and the other to the west (a strip of Khorezm and Iset up the Kuban River). . "South" half Massagetae - "great Yuezhi" (the real pronunciation: "da gveti) Chinese sources came to East Turkistan, where toharizovalas (Tocharians - the mysterious people, selivshiysya in Vost.Turkestane and merged with the aliens), there was the southern half issedonov (Usuns Chinese texts, asialo Greek authors); southern branch of the Scythian-scudo - Syr Darya is the Central Asian Sakas tigrahauda Achaemenid lists the Central Asian peoples.
"Western" half of the same tribe: the western part of the Scythian-scudo - went beyond the Volga (the Near-Black Sea region of their group, about which I wrote above), the western part of massashetov (the classic "massagets" Herodotus and other ancient authors) was settled between the Aral Sea, Atrek and the Caspian on the Uzboy - the lower reaches of the Amu Darya in Mangyshlak etc.; western branch issedonov remained close to their old lands (presumably on the river. Iset). http://atc.az/forum/showthread.php?t=4878

Hence it can not be concluded "Ashkenazi Jews returned to the country of Ashkenaz"
(Only if both the late medieval country). Jews, the Jews were numerous in the antique district of Azov and the Caucasus, in Rome and the cities of antiquity, where there were Jewish Christians, and then partially Jewish Muslim community. http://school.ort.spb.ru/library/torah/code/ettinger3_07.htm
http://school.ort.spb.ru/library/torah/code/ettinger5_03.htm
http://o-allax.com/zarozhdenie-islama.html ; http://o-allax.com/proroki-islama/stat/allax_3.html
(1. Judaism and Islam: the first meeting and the basis of coexistence

Judaism and the formation of Islam. Muhammad and the Jews of the Arabian Peninsula. The formation of religious and legal status of Jews in stranahislama. Dhimmi laws Omar.
2. The transformation of the Jewish communities in urban communities

Demographic changes in the Jewish diaspora as a result of Islamic conquests. Economic activities of Jews in Islamic countries. Radanity and the role of Jews in the international trading system. Changes in the social structure of Jewish Diaspora as a result of Islamic conquests. Proceedings of the Cairo genizy as a unique source of information on economic activity and social structure of Jewish communities in the Mediterranean region and in the East.
3. From centralized management to community self-

Hierarchical structure of Jewish self-government in the world of Islam. Ekzilarhat, Babylonian and Palestinian academies. Confronting the Palestinian and Babylonian centers: geopolitical, economic and social aspects. Formation of regional and local centers of the Jewish diaspora in the context of the collapse of an Islamic caliphate. Jewish communities in Egypt, North Africa and Muslim Spain in the X; XI centuries.
4. Watershed in the development of Jewish culture in the process of dialogue with the Arab culture.

Distribution of Arabic language and Arab culture in the Jewish diaspora. Karaites. Activities of Saadia Gaon. Intellectual creativity of the Jews in Islamic countries.
Developed and later Middle Ages (XII; XVII centuries).
1. Decline of the Jewish-Arab civilization.

Maghreb countries in doosmansky period and their Jewish communities. Invasion of the Almoravids and Almohads in North Africa and the Iberian Peninsula. Problems of survival and preservation of the Jews in the new environment. Jewish refugees in the role of the media of Arab culture in Christian Spain and North Africa. Mongol conquest and the Middle East. Fate of the Jews of Iran and Mesopotamia during the Mongol invasions. Islamization of the Mongols and their impact on the Jews. Mamluk era in the history of the Middle East, the Jews under the rule of the Mamluk dynasty. Eretz Israel and Jerusalem in the Mamluk period.
2. Ottoman period in the history of Jews in Islamic countries.

Formation of the Ottoman Empire, the changing political picture in the Middle East in the late XV - early XVI century. and the impact of these processes on the status of Jews in the region. Exiles from the Iberian Peninsula in North Africa and the Ottoman Empire. The problem of ethnic samointendifikatsii exiles, questions of religious status of the anus, folding Sephardic communities, relationships with local Jewish and non-Jewish groups. Jews of Eretz Israel from the Ottoman period. The revival of an active community life in Jerusalem. The flourishing of Jewish centers in the Galilee. The relationship between megorashim and Returning. Relationship problems of the Jewish and Muslim population of Jerusalem XVI; XVII centuries. Messianic aspirations of the Jewish communities in the Middle East during the heyday of the Ottoman Empire - the reasons, historical background, the influence of the spiritual atmosphere of the era. The mission of David Reuven. Mystical aspirations of Sages of Safed. Sabbatianstvo and its collapse. http://cjs.iaas.msu.ru/program_history.html )

The inevitable release of a new part of the Jews in Eastern Europe at the time was inevitable (Early Middle Ages
1. The Jews of Khazaria

The problem of inverting the Khazars: the king a letter version of Joseph and the Cambridge instrument. The motif of the debate about faith and mission of Constantine (Cyril) to Khazaria. Consequences of the Khazars and Judaism have a problem Kavar. The role of Judaism as a neutral religious traditions in the Khazar Empire. Ethnic religious communities in the capital of Khazaria Itil. Turkic tradition of sacred power of Kagan and Judaism. "Khazar yoke" in the traditional historiography and the role of the Khazars in the history of Eastern Europe. Trade routes radanitov merchants and traders Russes. The problem of small numbers of Jewish communities and their fate. Letter from Kiev Khazar-Jewish communities in X. and the problem of ethnic and religious contacts in Eastern Europe. Kiev Samvatas, Mount Horivitsa and Jewish legends. Relations of the Russian state and the Khazar khanate in the light of the Cambridge instrument. Death of the Khazars. Romantic (A. Koestler) and quasi-historical (P. Wexler) theory of the Khazar Ashkenazi Jews and Slavic origin.
2. Slavs and Jews in early medieval Europe. Jews in Kievan Rus.

Early medieval finds of Jewish tombstones in the Danube in Chelarevo (Vojvodina). Jews in Thessaloniki. Slavs and Canaan in Jewish medieval historiography. Hebrew alphabet, and Cyrillic.

Jews in Kievan Rus.

Choosing Faith Prince Vladimir and the Jews kozarstii. Chronicle and the Old Testament tradition. Attitudes toward Judaism and Jews in Old Russia: Metropolitan Hilarion and Theodosius of the Caves. The first religious slander and Byzantine origins of anti-Jewish Tradition: A Tale of Eustratius Postnikov. Pogrom of 1113 and the question of Jewish usury in ancient Russia. Old Russian literature and the Jews: the problem of translation X; XIII centuries. Mongol-Tatar invasion, and legends of the Ten Lost Tribes.
Developed and later Middle Ages
1. From the start of migration to the establishment of Jewish communities in Eastern Europe in XII; XV centuries.

The appearance of the first Jewish communities in Poland in XII; XIII centuries. Causes of the first waves of migration in the context of the overall migration of the German population to the east and because of the pogroms in Central Europe in 1298, 1348 years. The expansion of Jewish presence on the Polish-Lithuanian lands in XIV century, the Jewish community in Krakow, Poznan, Brest-Litovsk, Troc. Growth dynamics of the Jewish population of Eastern Europe. Legal status of Jews. "Statute of Kalisz" in 1264 as the basis for the development of legislation on the Jews. King Casimir III, and further strengthening of the legal status of Jews in the XIV; XV centuries. "Privileges Duke Vytautas and the legal status of Jews in the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Attitude of the Church towards the Jews. Jews and burghers. Participation of Jews in the economic life of the region. Main areas of economic activity - usury, trade, coinage, trade.
http://cjs.iaas.msu.ru/program_history.htm l)

Ashkenazi also hammered all original, and even explicitly anti-German accent

"We in Germany ... Once upon a time was the name of the application to the newspaper" Arguments and Facts. " This title - "We in Germany" - reflects well some thoughts from my article published in "Partner" in April of this year. One popular article dealt with the problems of emigration in general and the immigration of Jews to Germany.

The main question was: why are we in Germany and attempt to answer it. In the short time that has elapsed since the publication, send phone calls, new information, in connection with which it became necessary to once again return to the topic, this time in a more serious tone. Because these reflections and placed in the journal "Notes on Jewish History."

To remind you what was going on, I will give an excerpt from that article, concerning today's topic.

"... Do not you think, dear friends, we are here once visited? ... A few years ago, a Russian newspaper has told us the extraordinary story of the" Jewish auszidlere. A contingent refugee from the former Soviet Union brought with him the old documents proving that his ancestors in a certain tribe lived in a town in Germany. These documents formed the basis for changing his status, granting him immediate German citizenship, passports, pensions, etc.

This is certainly an exception. Few of us can be documented to prove our origins from the German lands in the past century. Only indirectly to have confirmation. For example, Yiddish - the language of our parents, a dialect of German. The older generation, who came here with some knowledge of Yiddish, has an advantage: it can almost immediately be explained with the local community and with government officials, everybody knows it.

Our name, formed from the German roots, as confirmed by one of the previous "homeland" - Germany. In my Hamburg inhabited by people with the surname of Hamburg (and with Russian names: Lyudmila, Love, Alexander, Andrew). There is a Berlin (Larissa, Leo), Moselle (Yuri L.), and so on. What is it but the memories of their former places of residence of ancestors? .. But that's not all.

In ancient times, the extreme southern and western Germany today were remote provinces of the Roman Empire. Here was a local Celtic population, Roman landowners, the Roman garrisons in the towns. This is today's Cologne (Colonia Agrippina), Bonn (Bonn), Mainz (Mogontiak), Worms (Borbetomag), Trier (August Trevira), Augsburg (August Vindelikov). Lived here and all sorts of mingled trade-craft class with Latin as a spoken language, understandable to all. And among them - the Jewish merchants, artisans, slaves and freedmen - the subjects of Rome.
(Just look at the gravestones Azov http://www.proza.ru/2010/02/09/1121  pass for Alan was a loud and prestige. 706 Jewish Tombstones in the Crimea have kept the names of Moses, Alan, Joseph Alan, Alan ... Goila Yet among the Alans are increasingly Christians. Alan city recognized Sugdeya (Sudak, Surozh), where the temple city of Sofia, about 790 baptized Prince of Novgorod Bravlin (41) Alanian inscription tenth century. gravitates to the Greek and Slavic languages and alphabets. http://www.azovhram.ru/content/view/24/ )

Germanic tribes had just begun to penetrate this land: the raids, the service in the Roman legions, the settlement is "seniority", then straight gains. So this land of the Celtic and Roman were gradually transformed into German. But as Jews lived here, and continued to live on. Only spoken language, in connection with the change of ruling elites, they changed from Latin to the pseudo-German, Kojima and became, in the end, the language of Yiddish.

Hence the involuntary withdrawal: Ashkenazi Jews - Aborigines, the indigenous population of the present German lands! They lived here before the arrival of the Germans ... "
(Partly on certain Haplogroups this is true, but the ancestors of the Germans - especially women - lived there and then: PZ)

This, of course, were speculative hypothesis, which are also difficult to prove as to disprove. Issues raised in the above passage, affect the two historical problems that we would like to discuss with colleagues in the pages of "Notes on Jewish History."

First: when the Jews came in Germany? Prior to joining the Germanic tribes, in conjunction with them, or after their arrival?

Second: when there was a language of our recent and ancient ancestors Yiddish? Why he was a dialect of German? Why not Russian, not Polish, not Ukrainian?

Of course, the first source may be biased, was a well-known book of M. Diamonte "Jews, God and History" (1994). On that we need time in the history of Germany where you can read the following.

"Jewish life in Germany was quite different. Many historians believe that a sufficient number of known facts, that in the II century AD northern boundary of the Roman empire guarded by German barbarians, the Roman soldiers of Jewish origin ... We can assume that the Jews were the first civilized inhabitants of Germany. It is known that Jews lived in Mainz, Cologne and other cities in the Rhine Valley in the days of the Romans "(p. 314).

Indeed, the Jewish soldiers and officers in the Roman army were not uncommon. Known even Jewish Marshal - Tiberius Alexander, nephew of the famous philosopher Philo of Alexandria. He was the supreme commander of the army of the Roman prince Titus, suppressed the revolt of Judea 66-70 They have the same seniority, and could settle in the new Roman lands, including land and the future of Germany.

And here is a completely objective view of German historians in this regard. Before us is a book by Peter Ortaga "Jewish history and culture» (Peter Ortag. J; dische Kultur und Geschichte. Landeszentralen f; r politische Bildung. Potsdam, 1995).

"By the beginning of a new era in the world had expected eight million Jews: about two million live in Judea, at a million dollars in Babylonia, Egypt, Syria and Asia Minor. Substantial Jewish communities were formed before the Jewish uprisings in central and southern Italy and the European garrison towns, such as: Korduba (Cordoba), Massilia (Marseille), Londinium (London), Augusta Treverorum (Trier), or Colonia Agrippina (Cologne) " (p. 77).

It would be easier to specify where the Jews were not, than to enumerate all the lands of the Roman Empire, where they were exactly. Here we are interested in the land of the future of Germany.

"(During) between the two Jewish wars (66-70 s and 132-135 s - SG) on the future German soil should already have been placed Jews. The first community was documented mentioned about 321 years. In Cologne (the Jewish community - SG) - has become known for 34 years before the Christian community in the same city "(p. 89).

It is not known where, in what city was that the very first Jewish community. It is also unknown when the Cologne formed the first Christian community. One thing is clear: the first Jewish community was established on the ground of the future of Germany before the adoption of Christianity as the state religion of the Roman Empire by Emperor Constantine the Great - it was only in 325.

As for the city of Cologne, then do not forget what it is today it is in Germany, and then - in ancient times - he was in the Roman province of Gaul, and no Germans were not there. The boundary between the already civilized Gaul with Celtic-Roman and, apparently, also the Jewish population, and Germany, then still inhabited by barbarian tribes, the Franks, Saxons, Alamanni, friezes, Vandals, Goths, Burgundians, Lombards and others, took place on the Rhine. To the left of the Rhine - the Roman province of Gaul, to the right of the Rhine - the informal world of barbaric Germanic tribes.

About the Gaul has the following information.

"The Jews lived in Gaul already in the IV century, as evidenced by the documents the following centuries. Their settlements were located along the axis passing through the valleys of the Rhone, Saone and the Rhine, ie along the road that followed the Roman legions. Jews were accompanied by foreign players as suppliers or vendors ... they were assimilated into the Roman Empire and enjoyed certain rights and privileges in accordance with the edict of the Emperor Caracalla from 212 years, which gave Roman citizenship to all inhabitants of the empire, "reports published by the French Encyclopedic Dictionary of Jewish civilization" ( M., 2000, p. 49).

But the German author P. Ortag calls for Gaul and the earlier dates.

"In Gaul there were Jews from the time of Caesar (he is still in 58-51 years BC, Rome conquered all of Gaul - SG). Franks gave them in a subsequent far-reaching law, Charles the Great in the VIII century (give them) further rights "(P. Ortag, p. 87).

Frankie - the first Germanic tribes invading the territory of the Roman province of Gaul, have lived or settled in the lower reaches of the Rhine in the III century BC They have the V century conquered all of Gaul, having formed the first Frankish (German) government. The Frankish king Clovis was baptized, he and forced three thousand of his soldiers baptized only in the 496. Apparently, by this time and should include the time of formation in the Frankish Cologne Christian community. The one that was formed 34 years later than the Jewish community in the same city.

When the grandsons of Charlemagne divided among themselves the Frankish Empire, and that was the 842 year, the Western Franks, the four centuries lived in the Celtic-Roman environment, no longer understood his brothers - Eastern Franks. Recall that the original homeland of the Frankish tribes were Franconia - region in the north of the current Bavaria. And the agreement on the division of the empire - "Strasburg oath" - had to translate from language to vostochnofrankskogo zapadnofranksky. This "zapadnofranksky language" became the Old French: the text of the oath is considered the oldest monument, which is measured with the top independent French language. A "vostochnofranksky" language became staronemetskim. The area around the lower reaches of the Rhine was annexed by Vostochnofrankskomu (German) kingdom and the Jews living there have long been adapted to their dialect staronemetsky language. Thus, the city of Cologne, together with the Jews who lived in it for the first time in its history, became German.

And to the West Frankish kingdom (the French) have departed from the earth itself Gaul had almost completely Romanized Frankish people, who spoke on the Old French language. And there proved to the Jews also preserved the language of their masters and neighbors and adapting it to their verbal abilities. So there were dialect of French Jews - Jewish-Provencal and Hebrew-French.

But we are interested in Yiddish language.

"Yiddish is from the northern part of the medieval Duchy of Lorraine" (p. 35) that corresponds well to the lands around the Rhine. "It arises in the XII century on the basis of mid-upper-German language, enriched by words and concepts from the Hebrew and Latin and French" (p. 33).

Date itself XII century raises some doubts. German dictionary "Brockhaus» (Brockhaus, 2003) gives a different time by subsuming the emergence of Yiddish back to the times of the Frankish empire of Charlemagne.

"Yiddish - the IX century lingua franca of Jews in Germany is a German dialect with the inclusion of Hebrew and Slavic components.

Recall that in the IX century has not happened yet, and the separation vostochnofrankskogo zapadnofrankskogo languages: a unified empire of Charlemagne was the Frankish as a national language.



"... The Jews of Central and Eastern Europe and their descendants are called Ashkenazi - the old name of Germany in Hebrew - Ashkenaz - since the ancestors of most of them once lived in Germany (R. Semyuels. Along the Paths of Jewish history. M., 1993, p. . 223).

That is to say, today's formal Jewish identification. But the fact there is a rich prehistory. Here's what you can read in the Torah about the mysterious country and people Ashkenaz.

"These are the descendants of Noah's sons - Shem, Ham and Japheth: their children were born after the flood (there is a listing them, among them the son of Japheth - Gomer - SG). The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, and Rifat, and Togarma "(the Torah, Genesis, 10:1-3).

Absolutely "disagrees" with the Torah Christian Bible says the following.

"That generations of the sons of Noah: Shem, Ham and Japheth. After the flood, were born to them (listed children, including the son of Japheth, we know Homer - SG). The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Rifat and Togarmah "(Bible, Genesis 10:1-3).

Therefore, Ashkenaz, Ashkenaz or - the great-grandson in November through his son Japhet (Japheth), from which the general, all biblical Japhetic (European) nations, and through his grandson Homer. Ashkenaz on the biblical tradition was for himself and his descendants the land for resettlement somewhere in the North. Where were these lands? Generally accepted view that these were the lands of Europe.

Bible Encyclopedia of 1891 says the opinion of Christian scholars in this regard.

"Ashkenaz - grandson of Japheth, and probably the ancestor of the peoples askenazskih which inhabited the country, which lies on the eastern and southeastern shores of the Black Sea. However, the exact position of the country is unknown. Some recent writers believe that this nation has given its name Scandia or Scandinavia "(vol. 1, p. 64).

Scandinavia, the ancient island Skandsa, the legendary homeland of the Germanic tribes, first of all is ready, is still the keeper of old Germanic tradition, mythology and culture for all Germanic peoples. The origin of the toponym "Scandinavia" is unknown. The end of Abijah "is translated from the Gothic as an" island ", the main part of speech, thought Christian theologians, is based on everything the same Biblical name Ashkenaz. Thus, the mythical country of Ashkenaz (Ashkenaz), seems to really localize the area of settlement of the ancient Germanic tribes, including the limits of the current country of Germany. And with them, and dwelt among them the ancient and medieval Jews. And why they were called - Ashkenazi.

And therefore we can say that today many Ashkenazi Jews returning to their roots, back to the country of Ashkenaz.

Discuss
 S. Glaser, Notes on Jewish History
16-08-2007
Discuss
1915 - alan 26-07-2010 21:24

Scythians in 28 years crossed the territory of the Great Powers of the Ancient Orient. At the beginning of VII century. BC. er. Scythians invaded across the Caucasus to Asia Minor. Part of them settled in the area Sacasa in Transcaucasia. In VII. they appeared in Palestine, as indicated by Herodotus. The Bible is the so-called "Table of Nations", composed in VII. BC. er. and telling people about the descendants of Noah. According to her last son of Noah Japheth had seven sons: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. Homer says in the following table, in turn, had three sons: Ashkenaz, Rifat and Togarma. All these numerous sons and grandchildren were the ancestors of various peoples, by their names they were called. Researchers believe that the name of Noah's "great-grandson of" Ashkenaz corresponds to the name of the tribe ashkuza known from the Assyrian cuneiform and Greek sources. And the name of "father" Homer meets Ashkenaz cuneiform "Gimmiray" Cimmerian Greek avtorov.V Assyria Scythians appear under his own name ashkuza (there are other options: ishkuza or shkuda) in 70-ies VIIv. BC led Ishpakaya and take part in the destruction of the country, which is reflected in the cuneiform inscriptions. Continued presence of the Scythians in Assyria and Asia associated with the name Partatua, which, unlike Ishpakaya leader, called the king "of the country Ashkuza (Ishkuza). According to Herodotus, at the end of VII century. BC. er. Scythians made a devastating raid on Syria, and came to Egypt. Pharaoh Psammetahu with gifts managed to persuade them to abandon their invasion of the country. From this period, the Scythians are often mentioned in Assyria and Asia Minor called ashkuz or Ashkenazy. Elimination of the kingdom Ashkuz (Ashkenazi) occurred in the first decade of the VI. BC. er. The identity of the Hebrew name of the Scythians Ashkenaz with the Assyrian ashkuza convincingly demonstrated Vingler. The fact that the Sarmatians and Alans were also self "as" confirmed by the sources. "... Ethnonym Sarmat attached to several tribes or tribal affiliations, including those referred to in the sources

1914 - Boris 21-08-2007 13:46 4-x thousand years not enough?

13 - M, NJ, USA 20-10-2009 07:18 I fully agree with 10, yes, you can live in the diaspora, but to be Jewish, and then our destiny will also be carried out - but for the self - the article shows that Our live there and everywhere on its own (at this stage) the earth. And, importantly, both local Aborigines knew about it. And Hitler - The warning - do not trust anyone and not to yield. .. ISRAEL - but not all of it deserved, and not all are willing to live there. And I often wonder - how our parents could come back after the evacuation of Kiev, Minsk, Vilnius, etc. ... and that's just our generation has left this place .. and the only part - were in Israel, and some grandchildren, but is now seeking to Israel, that, dear, no matter where we live --- let's not forget who we are. Thanks for the article Ator, she wakes up thinking .....

1912 - fuks 20-08-2007 11:23 A good, timely statya.Bukvalno a few weeks before its release and reading, I also realized that venules here not only for sots.pomoschyu.A because it is Franconia, in the capital which - I live in Nuremberg, is the source of my rodoslovnoy.Vot so, my dear Jews. 100% Jewish.

11 - David 20/02/2008 20:25 Galtmatya has nothing obshego with the history of the Jews and having a goal in any way justify the shameful phenomenon, the emigration of Jews in Germany

1910 - O. Berman 18-08-2007 11:37 Reply to josefsveik number: 3 Esreysky people created will of Gd to unite the peoples that make up humanity in the Unified Planetary society (the noosphere). Why there diaspora, a long way in that was full of hardship and suffering. Downstream - The people of the Spiritual Masters (as commanded), which leads the human race to higher goals. And in Eretz Yisrael to perform a decent role of the Spiritual Center of the Earth for all mankind, including the Germans and Romanians and Hungarians. Ivan Dyhovnichny (from a good Jewish kind) once said that the world can be transformed only by love. And he did right. The illusion that the world is ruled by force (sorry, I can not tell an anecdote about an illusion - indecent on the brink of a foul). The world is ruled by love of Gd and to Gd.

9 - DF 18-08-2007 08:01 Reply to esefsveik number: 6100% AGREE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

8 - josefsveik 17-08-2007 20:38 I'd like to believe and hope ...... In persons of the Jewish nation is the only country to which we must strive Land of Israel (foreign land we DO NOT NEED!) And one objective: to make the greatest contribution to the total liberation and rebirth of Eretz Yisrael - to reappear on this earth "great and powerful Jewish people ", which did not dare would never encroach nor Orthodox, nor muslimskie and the Arab Nazis. And as nemchura Slovak and Hungarian - even more so. The strength of the Jewish People should be (nice sound): in unity and love for his native land of Israel, to follow the Commandments.

7 - dima 17-08-2007 12:22 Reply to Marina Room: 3 ja evrei na vse 100%, Marinocka .. no delo ne vo mne. ukrainzi nemzev nenavidat?? zto to novoe. oni nemzev s hlebom sol, u prinimali. slavane tose prodavalis. a pribalti ubivali nas esse do prodazi. rez ne o tom. rez ob otkrito dverke. sto kasaetsa gitlera ... zitai knigu Goldhagena.o nemzah. ne pereozenivaite intellektualnii potenzial. im eto vobssem ne osobo nado. a evreev uniztozali i nenavdeli vsegda. a vot russkie i ukrainzi (i td) na evreiskom parovose deistvitelno superprokatilis. v germaniu, kanadu, israil, avstraliu. evreev vsegda ispolsovali. ciao, Bella.

6 - Marina 16-08-2007 21:58 Reply to dima Number: 3 Listen, wise guy! Why, then, every Russian, Ukrainian, etc., who could find the Jewish roots or to buy the documents, Rushed into such a hated you Slavs Germany? And during the war - how wonderfully sold Slavs fascists for soldering and chl a glass of your favorite vodka! Subordination of the host - originally Slavic need! Jews have lived for centuries in Western Europe, only because Hitler bastard Europe has lost such a powerful intellectual potential and has been abandoned for decades and decades ago!

5 - dima 16-08-2007 18:53 nu, polosim, vosvrassaiutsa oni, k sozialnoi pomossi il, gotam. esli b ne germania, a lubaja drugaja stana v te godi (i seizas) otkrila dverku (hot i finnlandia k primeru, ispania i td) vse b potekl b tuda. a eti zalkie popitki, poetizeski / teoretizeski vernutsa na,, rodinu,, nu prosto nizost. pozemu ne v Turziu? ona priutila evreev is Ispan k primeru. vse eto - evreiskaja podobostrastnost pered Hosainom.

4 - Sim 16/08/2007 17:53 A good probably return to the land of their ancestors: lovely rural landscapes, good burgers, "Schwein Hugs" for dinner ... And a neighbor, a veteran of the SS, so cute, cute ... What more could a poor "yude?

3 - O. Berman 16-08-2007 17:06 It would be right to return to see a two-part film W. Dvina "on Saturday, I'm the King" about the fate of idishgovoryaschih Jewish Holocaust Survivors. Normal people can not watch this movie without crying. Why is this wonderful movie lzhit "shelved" since its premiere in the Cinema House in 2002?

2 - Olga 12/12/2008 18:15 Once again convinced that the Jews can * sell * for what and for what! Holocaust took place on katkom.A you everything you did You left the country and the people who with you so postupili.Gde your pride? "And you think that in 10-20 years you will suffer the second Holokost.Ved not so rosy in germanii.U my friends there are Jews who left 10 years ago where they nazad.Poselili somewhere near Dresden in the former Soviet town voysk.Znakomy said that we live in rezervatsii.Obschaemsya only with its own, buy products only in Russian shops. grandchildren go to the Russian disco!

1 - Mosel of Israel 09/06/2007 21:17 20 years later - "Mr. Procter Gamble Introduces New seyfgart tastefully Jew =)
http://www.sem40.ru/evroplanet/emigration/19794/

Discussion of these patients wishing to leave questions and we will continue.

Ethnicity African-Eurasian on the main male naplogruppamhttp: / / ru.wikipedia.org / wiki / Y-хромосомные_гаплогруппы_в_этнических_группах (the rest of the group in the source) of the People in blue - Europe

http://dead-moross.livejournal.com/32482.html
http://www.taiwandna.com/ArabJmap.jpg


Ashkenazi, NH does not sleep

AM Turin (Molecular Genetics of the Jews http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=159 ) - in my opinion, continues to skillfully mock the founding fathers of HX, which - allegedly - is true. And if we ignore the PC-zaviralnye rhetoric and conclusions, the following information useful objective.
Atzmon G., Hao L., Pe'er I., Velez C., Pearlman A., Palamara PF, Morrow B., Friedman E., Oddoux C., Burns E., Ostrer H. Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry. The American Journal of Human Genetics, 03 June 2010.


http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/ S0002-9297% 2810% 2900246-6
Cell http://www.cell.com/

He has the information and comments. The results of the analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms polnogenomnogo seven Jewish populations (Atzmon, 2010). Homeland of the Jews localized areas of Israel, Lebanon and Syria. The closest to their ancestral gene is a Syrian Jewish, Druze, Bedouin and some Palestinians. Close - Turkish and Greek Jews. Reliably it can be argued that in the past there was a unidirectional migration of the Jews of Turkey abroad. Descendants of migrants were Ashkenazi, Italian and Iraqi Jews. Ashkenazi characterized by high genetic homogeneity that does not match the time of appearance of their ancestors in Europe - the 10 century. The authors of the publication (Atzmon, 2010) the discrepancy was explained on the basis of this category of population genetics as the "bottleneck". This factor was prior to the 15 century. The second version, explaining the high genetic homogeneity of the Ashkenazi Jews, may be based on the New Chronology AT Fomenko and GV Nosovsky or other hypotheses, alternative to traditional history. Ashkenazy, both religious and social community formed in 14-15 centuries.
(Tyurin here to add realistic details of the Ashkenazi http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ашкеназы  Synthesising achievements of linguistics, genetics, anthropology and history can conclude that the Ashkenazim have arisen in the centuries-long process of mixing different migration flows of the Jewish population encountered in the upper areas of the Vistula River in Poland in the XIII-XIV centuries. It's still not 14 - 15 cc., moreover, not all Jews have a history in 4 - 5 millennia: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Семиты ; http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Еврей  http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Иудаизм  PZ)

Could, for example, and Michael Dorfman "JEWISH GENES IN LINGUISTICS AND BIOLOGY» http://krotov.info/lib_sec/05_d/dor/fman4.htm read .
"It was back in 1950-60s are very popular in Israel, the special theory of Ashkenazi gene that causes kidney stones. Later it turned out that people from Europe do not feel that the Middle East requires a different, higher in comparison with European habits, water treatment and drinking enough fluids. The second generation of the Jews "Ashkenazi gene" suddenly disappeared. Non-genetic studies (epidemiology, etc.) invariably show that the spread of disease among the Jews closer to the people among whom they live, than between different Jewish groups.

Modern genetics can not confirm included in the last decade in fashion discourse on Judaism, as a family. Assertion that all Jews are descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - a part of our national mythology. We would like for everything to have our convictions and beliefs and become Zionists. In today's political correctness and multicultural world can we expect respect for the rights of any ethnic group, gender, or group to have its own mythology, even if it is not supported by scientific evidence. Biblical arguments are well serve as a psychological war being waged between Israel and its Arab neighbors, even if not confirmed by modern science. In the Bible Belt USA, where especially believe in the so-called "shared Judeo-Christian values of Western civilization, it also believe that the world was created in six days about six thousand years ago.

Deciphering the human genome has opened wide horizons for science. Although still in its infancy and is unable to confirm or refute our myths. The nature of the myth is that they believe unconditionally and allow powerful influence on our lives. When stop believing the myth, the trope of Vladimir Propp, he turns into a fairy tale - a myth which no longer believe. "
http://krotov.info/lib_sec/05_d/dor/fman4.htm


Tyurin rightly pointed out that in recent years, the forced pace of developing genetic tests of Man. Applied to the study of his past became isolated three disciplines: genogenealogiya, genogeography and genohronologiya that are part of the population genetics (again not add - man, since population genetics with respect to any community of living organisms http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Популяционная_генетика : PZ). They are based on the same array of data - genetic markers of the person. There are markers, not affecting the biological characteristics of people who passed only from father to son (they emit in the Y-chromosome) or from mother to daughter (they emit in the mtDNA). In the Y-chromosome are two types of markers. They define "haplogroup" and "haplotype" people. But not haplogroup is a set of haplotypes. This is an independent marker. A special group of genetic markers for study of molecular genetics in the polnogenomnogo analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms. Together, they characterize the genetic portrait of populations. The results of one of the first large-scale research on the technology of molecular genetics in a publication [Atzmon, 2010].

The authors presented the results of the analysis of single nucleotide polymorphisms polnogenomnogo seven Jewish populations. Their selection is satisfied by geographic, ethnic and ethno-geographical principles. On a geographical basis allocated Italian, Turkish and Greek Jews. Recall that the Jews, the autochthonous inhabitants of these regions - the "classical antiquity to the Jews" in the late 15 th century added Sephardim expelled from Spain. By ethnicity - Ashkenazi Jews. According to ethno-geographic - Mizrahi Jews separately for Syria, Iraq and Iran. Total account taken 237 test results. In their interpretation of the used database «Human Genome Diversity Project» and «The Population Reference Sample». They included "146 non-Jewish Middle Easterners (Druze, Bedouin and Palestinian), 30 northern Africans (Mozabite from Algeria), 1547 Europeans, and 653 individuals from other African, Asian, Latin American, and Oceanian populations.». Calculations of genetic distances between populations, which are processed by the method of principal components (principal component analyses) and multidimensional scaling (multi-dimensional scaling).

According to the analysis of genetic data, certain conclusions to which A. Tyurin comments.

1. Examined populations of Jews are linked genetically, suggesting that their common origin. This conclusion seems quite reasonable, and corresponds to the relevant conclusions of the analysis of Y-chromosome haplogroups Jews. (But significant variations in the Jewish haplotypes reflect the inclusion of various polietnosa polietnosy - State - Antiquity: PZ)

2. «STRUCTURE results show that the Jewish Diaspora groups all demonstrated Middle Eastern ancestry, ...». Here are some geographic uncertainty. That the authors of the publication is meant by the term "Middle East"? Above we have given a quotation: "146 non-Jewish Middle Easterners (Druze, Bedouin and Palestinian)». Druze and Palestinians - are residents of the westernmost part of the region, commonly referred to as the "Middle East". Most likely, the Bedouins are also residents of this region. Assigned to the Middle East and Mizrahi Syria, although generally accepted to refer to this country in the Middle East. Classification Mizrahi Iraq and Iran to the Middle East, corresponds to a common selection of the region. Note that the term "Middle East" does not appear in the publication. (Specification of Turin holds, we should seek accuracy terms, but it is not too affected are: PZ)

3. «There is almost no European ancestry in Iranian and Iraqi Jews, whereas Syrian, Sephardic, and Ashkenazi Jews have European admixture ranging from 30% ~ 60%.." This finding is consistent given in the publication of actual data. The European component of the genome of the largest in the Ashkenazi (Figure 2). It is high in Italian, Greek and Turkish Jews, gradually decreases towards the east - the Syrian, Iraqi and Iranian Jews. (Eastern Europe beyond suspicion? PZ; AM Tyurin ignored the fundamental importance of Table 1 and Figure 2. In these figures an arrow.)

4. Ashkenazi characterized by high genetic homogeneity that does not match the time of appearance of their ancestors in Europe - the 10 century. Discrepancy is explained on the basis of such categories of population genetics as the "bottleneck". This sharp decline in population size with the loss of genetic diversity. "Bottlenecks" could be several. This factor was prior to the 15 century. Then the number of Ashkenazim increased from 50,000 at the beginning up to 5 million in the early 19 th century.



(Here Tyurin, I think, too, is partly right. A number of people in history could not survive another "bottleneck." However, to prove it can only specialists genoetnografii: PZ)

"In the examined genetic data, the authors of the publication [Atzmon, 2010] showed no signs of" classical antiquity of the Jews. " The results of the Turin analysis of genetic portraits of the population of Jews do not really reviewed the components that could be attributed to this community that occurs in traditional history. In addition, the authors of the publication of research results in the description of "lost" Jews who lived in Anatolia, Italy, the Balkans, before the arrival of the Sephardim. That is attributed to the latter all the Jews in Turkey, Greece and Italy (see paragraph 3 results). Indeed, the Jews of Turkey and Greece genetically homogeneous. This could be only in two cases: before the Sephardim in Turkey and Greece, the Jews have not lived; Sephardim are not moved into the territory of these countries (paragraph: PZ).

Well, someone out there for something lost. But you something, Anatoly Matveyevich experienced popularizer - huge beds dosrednevekovoy history of the Jews did not lose.

Further analysis by principal components of genetic data on the population of Jews and non-Jews [Atzmon, 2010 Figure 1.; Prvy top on the table]. Red on the chart shows the results of the interpretation of Turin (and they seem to clog everything). Figure A arrows indicate the direction of increasing people's interest in the genome of "African" (1) and "East" (2) markers. Cloud of points "Jews" of localized between clouds of points "is not the Jews of Israel" (the Palestinians, Bedouins, Druze) and the "Europeans". Cloud of points "Jews" and "Europeans" overlap. Cloud of points "is not the Jews of Israel" is extended to the vector to increase in the genome of people, "African" marker. If we exclude the influence of "African" marker at the point of "Do not the Jews of Israel" and "European" in terms "Jews", then the clouds "Jews" and "not the Jews of Israel" will overlap each other. This locates the ancestral home of Jews in the region of residence Palestinians, Bedouin and Druze. This modern Israel, Lebanon and Syria, the West (District of Canaan: PZ).

Duc, nothing new. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Евреи
Tell any intelligent person.

http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=159

In diagram B, arrows indicate the direction of increasing people's interest in the genome of "Iranian" (1), "the Saudi-Arab" (2), "Western European" (3) and "Eastern European" (4 - that's about it and so would detail: PZ) markers. Central place in the distribution of points in the principal component is a cloud of "Friends." In the immediate vicinity of localized cloud "Bedouins," "Iraqi Jews", "Syrian Jews," Italian Jews "," Turkish and Greek Jews. " In close proximity to the cloud "Friends" got some of the points cloud "Palestinians." In Turkey, Greece and Italy, can be excluded from the boundaries of the proposed region, the ancestral homeland of the Jews. It can be assumed that the cloud "Iraqi Jews" "biased" "Iranian" factor. Then, the ancestral home of Jews localized region of residence of Syrian and Iraqi Jews, Bedouin, Druze and some Palestinians. This modern Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq. (In my article does not: PZ)


Interpretation of the chart C is no different from the above interpretation of the diagram B. But a cloud of "Iraqi Jews" in the immediate vicinity of the clouds "friends." This is a vote for the inclusion of Iraq in the region is the ancestral homeland of the Jews. Figure D, arrows indicate the direction of reducing the percentage of Jews in the genome of "European" markers. Cloud "The Jews of Iran" has stood apart. Cloud "The Jews of Iraq" fell apart ". That is, the Jews of Iraq did not appear as genetically uniform entity. Often characterized by their points came in a cloud of "Jews of Syria." The other part - in a cloud of "The Jews of Turkey and Greece." The remaining points of sweat in the peripheral region of the clouds, "The Jews of Italy." This is almost definitely the territory of Iraq is excluded from the region, the ancestral homeland of the Jews. Figure D reflects the fact that part of Iraq's Jews are Jews of Syria.

Radically different picture we have in the principal components for inclusion in the analysis of data on the population of Jews and Europeans, with the division the past on a regional basis (Figure 2). Central position in the diagram A cloud occupied the "Jews of Syria", "The Jews of Turkey and Greece" and "Ashkenazi." Cloud "The Jews of Iraq became isolated from them by the manifestation of" Iranian "factor. These clouds have taken a central position in the diagram B. But the clouds "The Jews of Iraq" and "The Jews of Iran" were in "different directions" from the region of points, "The Jews of Syria" and "The Jews of Turkey and Greece." Formally, this localizes the region of the ancestral homeland of the Jews in Syria, Turkey and Greece to the exclusion of it in Iraq.

http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=159


Figure 2. Results of the analysis method of principal components of genetic data on the population of Jews and Europeans [Atzmon, 2010]. Information in red (except points) marked AM Turin (yes, your great contributions: PZ). Explanations are given in the text.

General conclusions. Homeland of the Jews localized areas of Israel, Lebanon and Syria. The closest to their ancestral gene is a Syrian Jewish, Druze, Bedouin and some Palestinians. Close - Turkish and Greek Jews. Part of the Iraqi Jews genetically close to the Syrian Jews. Perhaps part of Iraq was part of the ancestral homeland of the Jews in the region. Perhaps some of the ancestors of Iraqi Jews came from Syria.

4. Migration patterns of Jews in the past century

Figure 3 shows the results of the analysis method of principal components of genetic data on the population of Jews (vykopirovka with Figure 1) and personal communication of their genome. It can be assumed that the identified individual relationship reflects the "movement" of Jews from one population to another that occurred in the last century. The genetic type of the Jews of Turkey and Greece are virtually identical. In the principal components describing their point of forming a single cloud. This may be a case of an active exchange of genetic markers between these populations. Moreover, the genetic relationships of Turkish and Greek Jews are unordered character. This situation is shown in Figure 3 (lower segment) shows a red dotted line with arrows at the ends.

http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=159



Figure 3. Results of the analysis method of principal components of genetic data on the population of Jews (the upper segment) and the individual relationship of the genome (lower segment) [Atzmon, 2010]. Information in red (except points) marked AM Turin. Explanations are given in the text.

Curiously, the East European Jewry as it fundamentally is not considered.

On this basis, A. M. Tyurin finds, mainly referring to himself and the founding fathers of HX.

5. On the question of the possible causes of high genetic homogeneity of the Ashkenazi

At the turn of 19 and 20 centuries, Ashkenazi Jews lived in the historical territories of the north of France, Germany, Poland, Belarus, Lita, Latvia and western Ukraine. According to traditional history, the first Jews came to this region in 10 century (and then land without Russia? PZ). But today's Ashkenazi Jews have high genetic homogeneity that does not correspond to the time of their appearance in the region. Can you explain it, as did the authors of the publication [Atzmon, 2010], using the "bottleneck"? None. When passing through a population "bottleneck" (in terms of loss of genetic diversity), who it was, will be concentrated in a small area (zashibets. Http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Эффект_бутылочного_горлышка : PZ) If Ashkenazi Jewish population of his passes to 15 th century (eg in consequence of the plague years of 1348-1351), they were first to disappear in the region where they live except for one district. But then again occupy the entire region. These facts in the history of the Jews are not marked.
(As in the district early medieval Rus and the Khazars were a lot of Jews, and then they Caliphate, and Turkey are involved in their policies, but at the beginning of a new time again returned: PZ)

And the usual nonsense.

The second version, which explains the phenomenon of high genetic homogeneity of the Ashkenazi Jews may be based on the New Chronology AT Fomenko and GV Nosovsky [Site New Timeline] or other hypotheses, alternative to traditional history. Ashkenazy, both religious and social community formed in 14-15 centuries.

Earlier, we noted that today there is no problem to run on the DNA data reconstruction ethnogenesis of the Jews in the New Chronology. But this work should be preceded by a detailed review of DNA data on the Jews in the female line [Turin, 2010, Dating Jews]. After publishing the article [Atzmon, 2010] factual basis of genetic data on the Jews, greatly expanded. Reconstruction of ethnogenesis - business equipment.

Why are HX remodel?
"Ashkenazy, both religious and social community, was formed in 14-15 centuries.
This commandment NH, under which you are doomed to customize the invoice.
Otherwise, sweet rob ...




Sources of information

[Site New Timeline] Site "New Chronology". http://www.chronologia.org/
[Turin, 2010, Dating of the Jews] Tyurin AM Genohronologicheskoe dating Jews in the context of the traditional history and the New Chronology.
Electronic collection of articles "New Chronology". Issue 10. 2010.
http://new.chronologia.org/volume10/
Site: New Timeline http://www.chronologia.org/


Atzmon G., Hao L., Pe'er I., Velez C., Pearlman A., Palamara PF, Morrow B., Friedman E., Oddoux C., Burns E., Ostrer H. Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry. The American Journal of Human Genetics, 03 June 2010. http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract /S0002-9297% 2810% 2900246-6
Cell http://www.cell.com/
Publication [Atzmon, 2010] is discussed here:
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=1573 .msg45908; topicseen # new
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=1577 .msg45911; topicseen # new
http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t504.html

Repeat information that has resulted.
Among the various groups of Jews predominate, and various mitochondrial haplogroups.
In Ashkenazi Jews - K1, a Sephardic and North African Jews - N.
But in general, the Jews are characterized by: K1, H, T and O.
What (or what) mitogaplogruppa typical Middle Eastern Jews (non-migrants)?
What is the predominant mitogaplogruppa a Cohen?
Yes there are different haplogroups - U3, H, X, U7, J well, etc. Middle East.

And Cohen is not mitogaplogruppy - this is a purely male origin (their mitogaplogruppy not differ from other Jewish haplogroups).
Well this is like asking what mitogaplogruppa typical Rurik - yes to whom married, and she is typical.
Maybe worth asking Anatolii Alekseevich in another way: Are there studies of Cohen mtDNA in general? that it would be interesting too ..
Was conducted.
the origin of any mitogaplogrupp modern Jews may be associated with the Southern Levant and Lower Egypt?
kapustin
05/29/2009, 22:51
N1b, T, J, K, quite possibly, versions H and U - well, in general, all the Middle Eastern groups, as well as the L and M1.

But I tell you a secret, most historians believe that the Egyptian captivity was not.
In the 13 BC there was a famine in Canaan, and there simply coup - Habiru (Jews) - a group of marginalized members of the Canaanite population, along with nearby nomadic tribes just overthrew the old elite of Canaan (see the book "Palestine to the Jews, and the channel Explorer and Historybyl movie secrets Bible - which is also supported by this version).
The legend of the Egyptian captivity was brought in later, 7-6 in BC when executed Judaism and became a reporter quite real Babylonian exile and the exile in Egypt (where the uprising was against the Babylonians, some Jews migrated to Egypt and gave rise to the Egyptian diaspora.
So the legend of legends, and facts can contradict it.
http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t504.html

According to the study of DNA-marker Y-chromosome, which are transmitted through the father, in most communities are mixed in similar proportions of four Middle Eastern haplotype: J1, J2, E-M35 and G. In total they account for about 60-70%. Each community has a lot of haplotypes, not originating from the Middle East. They are specific to the residence of the community: the Ashkenazi - R1a and I (I1 or I2 from Germany to the west of Ukraine). In marrokantsev and clean Sephardim from Turkey and Bulgaria - R1b. Iraqis (and Iranians in the table) - P, Q and R2. Yemeni Jews have come from places where 70% of Muslims, and so have the J1 haplotype - respectively, they have it and submitted more than all the other communities.

Two communities look quite unlike any other: the Ethiopian and Georgian Jews. Those and others almost not represented by haplotype J1. In the Ethiopian Jews represented haplotype A (apart from them, common in Khoisan peoples), and variants of E, different from M35. In the Georgian Jews - R1b and variants, E. (known, incidentally, that Georgian Jews are no or almost never koѓenov).

In Jewish communities, there is no haplogroup, which would been linked with the Turkic peoples. This refutes the "Khazar" hypothesis. [2]

The total number of non-Middle Eastern haplotypes in most communities is 20-30%, the Ethiopian Jews and Georgian Jews - 60-75%. It is necessary, while noting that both are very different from that of the local population: the Ethiopian Christians, only 13% A, the Georgians, as we have said,> 40% G, and the Georgian Jews - less than 5%.

Separately, we must mention koѓenov. They are really significantly different from non-koѓenov in the community. While not distinguish J1 from J2, said that at least 75% koѓenov have in common (the father) origin. When divided J1 and J2, the situation was less rosy. 51% koѓenov Ashkenazi (from other communities - about the same picture) - have haplotype J1, while 22% - J2. Moreover, almost 30% of the Levites of Ashkenazi also have in common with the European population haplotype [3]. [1]

Studies of mitochondrial DNA

In addition to the Y-chromosome is the source of DNA, which is passed exclusively through the maternal line. This mitochondrial DNA. In the mitochondria, as in bacteria, has its own circular DNA, and their ribosomes (similar to bacteria) destined for protein synthesis. Sperm during fertilization does not bring with them the mitochondria, so they definitely inherited from his mother. Just as in the case of the Y chromosome, it is possible to study the variability in the mitochondrial DNA to construct a tree from different haplogroups, haplogroup designated by different letters, then - the numbers, letters, and again etc.

Mitochondrial DNA haplotypes are distributed geographically is strong enough to distinguish Africa from Australia or America. But the difference between the Middle East and Europe are not so great. It manifests itself in relationships between different haplotypes, but the haplotypes represented here and there. And these relations are very sensitive to the founders's effect - the founder effect. If an ethnic group is based very small number of people, or at some time in the history of it survived very few people - this is called a bottleneck, the bottleneck - the proportion of haplotypes in these few and their descendants at random will differ from the original population.

Approximately 40-50% of Europeans carry the same haplotype - N. But in the Middle East, he is carried by about 20% of the population. In Jewish communities it too much - in Ashkenazi Jews - about 20% of Sephardic and marrokantsev - 30-40%, as much as the Europeans. Do Ashkenazi Jews is the most common haplogroup - K. It is 31% of the population. Moreover, if we look more fractional, this group represented more than three fractional haplotypes: K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a. In other words, 31% of Ashkenazi Jews is on the maternal line smoothly from three different women. From K1a1b1a is 19% of Ashkenazi Jews. Do any of these women from the Middle East or from Europe - to say impossible. Haplogroup K is found in 10-15% of the Druze and Palestinians, but also in France about 10%, and in some areas - 15%. In Ashkenazi Jews, if we exclude the haplogroups H and K, the maximum correlation among all the peoples of the Mediterranean observed with the Palestinians. This could mean that the Palestinians are descendants of Jews through the female line. The same thing happens with many other Jewish communities. 60% of Georgian Jews have a common haplotype - HV1a1a1a - that is descended from one woman.

Similarly, women from one place of about 60% of Mountain Jews, but on the other - about 70% of Bukhara. 40% of Iraqi and Iranian Jews - descendants of five different women. Similarly, from one mother come 40% of the Tunisian and Libyan Jews. Because of the founder's effect in all these cases it is impossible to say whether these women are local or have occurred in the Middle East. I wonder what is not traced founder's effect in marrokantsev and Sephardim. They have a dominant haplogroup (30-40%) - H, and it contains about the same proportion as in the European population. Best of all, it correlates with the southern European nations: France, even better - the north of Italy. And with the Middle East correlates much worse.

Thus, almost all Jewish communities occur on the maternal side of a very limited number of women. This is typical for all expatriate communities. When creating a new community it creates are mostly male. If they, for whatever reason, can not marry local women, they have a critical shortage of women. Each appearance of women in the community is unique, so it's impossible to say whether the woman came from the metropolis or found on the site. After several generations of descendants of this woman lays community. It already has a lot of women, but they all originate from the original founders. [2]

The method of identity by descent (IBD)

(Here Tyurin, I think, too, is partly right. A number of people in history could not survive another "bottleneck." However, to prove it can only specialists genoetnografii: PZ)

"In the examined genetic data, the authors of the publication [Atzmon, 2010] showed no signs of" classical antiquity of the Jews. " The results of the Turin analysis of genetic portraits of the population of Jews do not really reviewed the components that could be attributed to this community that occurs in traditional history. In addition, the authors of the publication of research results in the description of "lost" Jews who lived in Anatolia, Italy, the Balkans, before the arrival of the Sephardim. That is attributed to the latter all the Jews in Turkey, Greece and Italy (see paragraph 3 results). Indeed, the Jews of Turkey and Greece genetically homogeneous. This could be only in two cases: before the Sephardim in Turkey and Greece, the Jews have not lived; Sephardim are not moved into the territory of these countries (paragraph: PZ).

Well, someone out there for something lost. But you something, Anatoly Matveyevich experienced popularizer - huge beds dosrednevekovoy history of the Jews did not lose.

Further analysis by principal components of genetic data on the population of Jews and non-Jews [Atzmon, 2010 Figure 1.; Prvy top on the table]. Red on the chart shows the results of the interpretation of Turin (and they seem to clog everything). Figure A arrows indicate the direction of increasing people's interest in the genome of "African" (1) and "East" (2) markers. Cloud of points "Jews" of localized between clouds of points "is not the Jews of Israel" (the Palestinians, Bedouins, Druze) and the "Europeans". Cloud of points "Jews" and "Europeans" overlap. Cloud of points "is not the Jews of Israel" is extended to the vector to increase in the genome of people, "African" marker. If we exclude the influence of "African" marker at the point of "Do not the Jews of Israel" and "European" in terms "Jews", then the clouds "Jews" and "not the Jews of Israel" will overlap each other. This locates the ancestral home of Jews in the region of residence Palestinians, Bedouin and Druze. This modern Israel, Lebanon and Syria, the West (District of Canaan: PZ).

Duc, nothing new. http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Евреи
Tell any intelligent person.

http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=159

In diagram B, arrows indicate the direction of increasing people's interest in the genome of "Iranian" (1), "the Saudi-Arab" (2), "Western European" (3) and "Eastern European" (4 - that's about it and so would detail: PZ) markers. Central place in the distribution of points in the principal component is a cloud of "Friends." In the immediate vicinity of localized cloud "Bedouins," "Iraqi Jews", "Syrian Jews," Italian Jews "," Turkish and Greek Jews. " In close proximity to the cloud "Friends" got some of the points cloud "Palestinians." In Turkey, Greece and Italy, can be excluded from the boundaries of the proposed region, the ancestral homeland of the Jews. It can be assumed that the cloud "Iraqi Jews" "biased" "Iranian" factor. Then, the ancestral home of Jews localized region of residence of Syrian and Iraqi Jews, Bedouin, Druze and some Palestinians. This modern Israel, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq. (In my article does not: PZ)


Interpretation of the chart C is no different from the above interpretation of the diagram B. But a cloud of "Iraqi Jews" in the immediate vicinity of the clouds "friends." This is a vote for the inclusion of Iraq in the region is the ancestral homeland of the Jews. Figure D, arrows indicate the direction of reducing the percentage of Jews in the genome of "European" markers. Cloud "The Jews of Iran" has stood apart. Cloud "The Jews of Iraq" fell apart ". That is, the Jews of Iraq did not appear as genetically uniform entity. Often characterized by their points came in a cloud of "Jews of Syria." The other part - in a cloud of "The Jews of Turkey and Greece." The remaining points of sweat in the peripheral region of the clouds, "The Jews of Italy." This is almost definitely the territory of Iraq is excluded from the region, the ancestral homeland of the Jews. Figure D reflects the fact that part of Iraq's Jews are Jews of Syria.

Radically different picture we have in the principal components for inclusion in the analysis of data on the population of Jews and Europeans, with the division the past on a regional basis (Figure 2). Central position in the diagram A cloud occupied the "Jews of Syria", "The Jews of Turkey and Greece" and "Ashkenazi." Cloud "The Jews of Iraq became isolated from them by the manifestation of" Iranian "factor. These clouds have taken a central position in the diagram B. But the clouds "The Jews of Iraq" and "The Jews of Iran" were in "different directions" from the region of points, "The Jews of Syria" and "The Jews of Turkey and Greece." Formally, this localizes the region of the ancestral homeland of the Jews in Syria, Turkey and Greece to the exclusion of it in Iraq.

http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=159


Figure 2. Results of the analysis method of principal components of genetic data on the population of Jews and Europeans [Atzmon, 2010]. Information in red (except points) marked AM Turin (yes, your great contributions: PZ). Explanations are given in the text.

General conclusions. Homeland of the Jews localized areas of Israel, Lebanon and Syria. The closest to their ancestral gene is a Syrian Jewish, Druze, Bedouin and some Palestinians. Close - Turkish and Greek Jews. Part of the Iraqi Jews genetically close to the Syrian Jews. Perhaps part of Iraq was part of the ancestral homeland of the Jews in the region. Perhaps some of the ancestors of Iraqi Jews came from Syria.

4. Migration patterns of Jews in the past century

Figure 3 shows the results of the analysis method of principal components of genetic data on the population of Jews (vykopirovka with Figure 1) and personal communication of their genome. It can be assumed that the identified individual relationship reflects the "movement" of Jews from one population to another that occurred in the last century. The genetic type of the Jews of Turkey and Greece are virtually identical. In the principal components describing their point of forming a single cloud. This may be a case of an active exchange of genetic markers between these populations. Moreover, the genetic relationships of Turkish and Greek Jews are unordered character. This situation is shown in Figure 3 (lower segment) shows a red dotted line with arrows at the ends.

http://supernovum.ru/public/index.php?doc=159



Figure 3. Results of the analysis method of principal components of genetic data on the population of Jews (the upper segment) and the individual relationship of the genome (lower segment) [Atzmon, 2010]. Information in red (except points) marked AM Turin. Explanations are given in the text.

Curiously, the East European Jewry as it fundamentally is not considered.

On this basis, A. M. Tyurin finds, mainly referring to himself and the founding fathers of HX.

5. On the question of the possible causes of high genetic homogeneity of the Ashkenazi

At the turn of 19 and 20 centuries, Ashkenazi Jews lived in the historical territories of the north of France, Germany, Poland, Belarus, Lita, Latvia and western Ukraine. According to traditional history, the first Jews came to this region in 10 century (and then land without Russia? PZ). But today's Ashkenazi Jews have high genetic homogeneity that does not correspond to the time of their appearance in the region. Can you explain it, as did the authors of the publication [Atzmon, 2010], using the "bottleneck"? None. When passing through a population "bottleneck" (in terms of loss of genetic diversity), who it was, will be concentrated in a small area (zashibets. Http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Эффект_бутылочного_горлышка: PZ) If Ashkenazi Jewish population of his passes to 15 th century (eg in consequence of the plague years of 1348-1351), they were first to disappear in the region where they live except for one district. But then again occupy the entire region. These facts in the history of the Jews are not marked.
(As in the district early medieval Rus and the Khazars were a lot of Jews, and then they Caliphate, and Turkey are involved in their policies, but at the beginning of a new time again returned: PZ)

And the usual nonsense.

The second version, which explains the phenomenon of high genetic homogeneity of the Ashkenazi Jews may be based on the New Chronology AT Fomenko and GV Nosovsky [Site New Timeline] or other hypotheses alternative to traditional history. Ashkenazy, both religious and social community formed in 14-15 centuries.

Earlier, we noted that today there is no problem to run on the DNA data reconstruction ethnogenesis of the Jews in the New Chronology. But this work should be preceded by a detailed review of DNA data on the Jews in the female line [Turin, 2010, Dating Jews]. After publishing the article [Atzmon, 2010] factual basis of genetic data on the Jews, greatly expanded. Reconstruction of ethnogenesis - business equipment.

Why are HX remodel?
"Ashkenazy, both religious and social community, was formed in 14-15 centuries.
This commandment NH, under which you are doomed to customize the invoice.
Otherwise, sweet rob ...




Sources of information

[Site New Timeline] Site "New Chronology". http://www.chronologia.org/
[Turin, 2010, Dating of the Jews] Tyurin AM Genohronologicheskoe dating Jews in the context of the traditional history and the New Chronology.
Electronic collection of articles "New Chronology". Issue 10. 2010 .
http://new.chronologia.org/volume10/
Site: New Timeline http://www.chronologia.org/


Atzmon G., Hao L., Pe'er I., Velez C., Pearlman A., Palamara PF, Morrow B., Friedman E., Oddoux C., Burns E., Ostrer H. Abraham's Children in the Genome Era: Major Jewish Diaspora Populations Comprise Distinct Genetic Clusters with Shared Middle Eastern Ancestry. The American Journal of Human Genetics, 03 June 2010. http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297% 2810% 2900246-6
Cell http://www.cell.com/
Publication [Atzmon, 2010] is discussed here:
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=1573.msg45908; topicseen # new
http://forum.molgen.org/index.php?topic=1577.msg45911; topicseen # new
http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t504.html

Repeat information that has resulted.
Among the various groups of Jews predominate, and various mitochondrial haplogroups.
In Ashkenazi Jews - K1, a Sephardic and North African Jews - N.
But in general, the Jews are characterized by: K1, H, T and O.
What (or what) mitogaplogruppa typical Middle Eastern Jews (non-migrants)?
What is the predominant mitogaplogruppa a Cohen?
Yes there are different haplogroups - U3, H, X, U7, J well, etc. Middle East.

And Cohen is not mitogaplogruppy - this is a purely male origin (their mitogaplogruppy not differ from other Jewish haplogroups).
Well this is like asking what mitogaplogruppa typical Rurik - yes to whom married, and she is typical.
Maybe worth asking Anatolii Alekseevich in another way: Are there studies of Cohen mtDNA in general? that it would be interesting too ..
Was conducted.
the origin of any mitogaplogrupp modern Jews may be associated with the Southern Levant and Lower Egypt?
kapustin
05/29/2009, 22:51
N1b, T, J, K, quite possibly, versions H and U - well, in general, all the Middle Eastern groups, as well as the L and M1.

But I tell you a secret, most historians believe that the Egyptian captivity was not.
In the 13 BC there was a famine in Canaan, and there simply coup - Habiru (Jews) - a group of marginalized members of the Canaanite population, along with nearby nomadic tribes just overthrew the old elite of Canaan (see the book "Palestine to the Jews, and the channel Explorer and Historybyl movie secrets Bible - which is also supported by this version).
The legend of the Egyptian captivity was brought in later, 7-6 in BC when executed Judaism and became a reporter quite real Babylonian exile and the exile in Egypt (where the uprising was against the Babylonians, some Jews migrated to Egypt and gave rise to the Egyptian diaspora.
So the legend of legends, and facts can contradict it.
http://www.rodstvo.ru/forum/lofiversion/index.php?t504.html
According to the study of DNA-marker Y-chromosome, which are transmitted through the father, in most communities are mixed in similar proportions of four Middle Eastern haplotype: J1, J2, E-M35 and G. In total they account for about 60-70%. Each community has a lot of haplotypes, not originating from the Middle East. They are specific to the residence of the community: the Ashkenazi - R1a and I (I1 or I2 from Germany to the west of Ukraine). In marrokantsev and clean Sephardim from Turkey and Bulgaria - R1b. Iraqis (and Iranians in the table) - P, Q and R2. Yemeni Jews have come from places where 70% of Muslims, and so have the J1 haplotype - respectively, they have it and submitted more than all the other communities.

Two communities look quite unlike any other: the Ethiopian and Georgian Jews. Those and others almost not represented by haplotype J1. In the Ethiopian Jews represented haplotype A (apart from them, common in Khoisan peoples), and variants of E, different from M35. In the Georgian Jews - R1b and variants, E. (known, incidentally, that Georgian Jews are no or almost never koѓenov).

In Jewish communities, there is no haplogroup, which would been linked with the Turkic peoples. This refutes the "Khazar" hypothesis. [2]

The total number of non-Middle Eastern haplotypes in most communities is 20-30%, the Ethiopian Jews and Georgian Jews - 60-75%. We must, in this case, noting that both are very different from that of the local population: the Ethiopian Christians, only 13% A, the Georgians, as we have said,> 40% G, and the Georgian Jews - less than 5%.

Separately, we must mention koѓenov. They are really significantly different from non-koѓenov in the community. While not distinguish J1 from J2, said that at least 75% koѓenov have in common (the father) origin. When divided J1 and J2, the situation was less rosy. 51% koѓenov Ashkenazi (from other communities - about the same picture) - have haplotype J1, while 22% - J2. Moreover, almost 30% of the Levites of Ashkenazi also have in common with the European population haplotype [3]. [1]

Studies of mitochondrial DNA

In addition to the Y-chromosome is the source of DNA, which is passed exclusively through the maternal line. This mitochondrial DNA. In the mitochondria, as in bacteria, has its own circular DNA, and their ribosomes (similar to bacteria) destined for protein synthesis. Sperm during fertilization does not bring with them the mitochondria, so they definitely inherited from his mother. Just as in the case of the Y chromosome, it is possible to study the variability in the mitochondrial DNA to construct a tree from different haplogroups, haplogroup designated by different letters, then - the numbers, letters, and again etc.

Mitochondrial DNA haplotypes are distributed geographically is strong enough to distinguish Africa from Australia or America. But the difference between the Middle East and Europe are not so great. It manifests itself in relationships between different haplotypes, but the haplotypes represented here and there. And these relations are very sensitive to the founders's effect - the founder effect. If an ethnic group is based very small number of people, or at some time in the history of it survived very few people - this is called a bottleneck, the bottleneck - the proportion of haplotypes in these few and their descendants at random will differ from the original population.

Approximately 40-50% of Europeans carry the same haplotype - N. But in the Middle East, he is carried by about 20% of the population. In Jewish communities it too much - in Ashkenazi Jews - about 20% of Sephardic and marrokantsev - 30-40%, as much as the Europeans. Do Ashkenazi Jews is the most common haplogroup - K. It is 31% of the population. Moreover, if we look more fractional, this group represented more than three fractional haplotypes: K1a1b1a, K1a9, and K2a2a. In other words, 31% of Ashkenazi Jews is on the maternal line smoothly from three different women. From K1a1b1a is 19% of Ashkenazi Jews. Do any of these women from the Middle East or from Europe - to say impossible. Haplogroup K is found in 10-15% of the Druze and Palestinians, but also in France about 10%, and in some areas - 15%. In Ashkenazi Jews, if we exclude the haplogroups H and K, the maximum correlation among all the peoples of the Mediterranean observed with the Palestinians. This could mean that the Palestinians are descendants of Jews through the female line. The same thing happens with many other Jewish communities. 60% of Georgian Jews have a common haplotype - HV1a1a1a - that is descended from one woman.

Similarly, women from one place of about 60% of Mountain Jews, but on the other - about 70% of Bukhara. 40% of Iraqi and Iranian Jews - descendants of five different women. Similarly, from one mother come 40% of the Tunisian and Libyan Jews. Because of the founder's effect in all these cases it is impossible to say whether these women are local or have occurred in the Middle East. I wonder what is not traced founder's effect in marrokantsev and Sephardim. They have a dominant haplogroup (30-40%) - H, and it contains about the same proportion as in the European population. Best of all, it correlates with the southern European nations: France, even better - the north of Italy. And with the Middle East correlates much worse.

Thus, almost all Jewish communities occur on the maternal side of a very limited number of women. This is typical for all expatriate communities. When creating a new community it creates are mostly male. If they, for whatever reason, can not marry local women, they have a critical shortage of women. Each appearance of women in the community is unique, so it's impossible to say whether the woman came from the metropolis or found on the site. After several generations of descendants of this woman lays community. It already has a lot of women, but they all originate from the original founders. [2]

The method of identity by descent (IBD)

Early genetic research on blood groups and serological markers have shown that Jewish communities have a common Middle Eastern origin and are characterized by significant genetic similarity between pairs of Jewish communities. However, these studies, as well as subsequent studies monoallelnyh Y-chromosome and mitochondrial genetic markers do not decide issues of domestic and cross-group of Jewish genetic identification. Whole genome analysis of the seven Jewish communities (Iranian, Iraqi, Syrian, Italian, Turkish, Greek and Ashkenazi Jews), in comparison with non-Jewish populations showed the characteristic of Middle Eastern origin, the proximity to the modern Middle Eastern populations and different amounts of European and North African admixture. Two main groups - Jews and Middle Eastern European / Syrian Jews were identified by principal component analysis, phylogenetic analysis, and methods are identical by descent (IBD). Overlapping segments of IBD and the proximity of European Jews to each other and to the South-European groups have suggested a common origin of European Jews, and refuted the assumption that a large genetic contribution of Central, Eastern European and Slavic populations in the formation of Ashkenazic Jewry. Rapid decline in IBD in Ashkenazi Jews genomes corresponds to the assumption of a strong effect of the "bottleneck", accompanied by large increases in population - the so-called "demographic miracle" to increase the Jewish population of Europe from 50 000 at the beginning of the XV century to 5 million people in the beginning of the XIX century . Thus, this study demonstrates that the European / Middle Eastern and Syrian Jews represent a series of geographic clusters, with common genetic characteristics of IBD [4].

Graphs showing the results of the study
; Behar DM, Yunusbayev B, Metspalu M, Metspalu E, Rosset S, Parik J, Rootsi S, Chaubey G, Kutuev I, Yudkovsky G, Khusnutdinova EK, Balanovsky O, Semino O, Pereira L, Comas D, Gurwitz D, Bonne -Tamir B, Parfitt T, Hammer MF, Skorecki K, Villems R. The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people (English) / / Nature. - 2010 Jul 8. - V. 466 (7303). - S. 238-42.
; Hammer MF, Behar DM, Karafet TM, Mendez FL, Hallmark B, Erez T, Zhivotovsky LA, Rosset S, Skorecki K. Extended Y chromosome haplotypes resolve multiple and unique lineages of the Jewish priesthood / / Hum Genet. - 2009 Nov. - V. 126 (5). - S. 707-17.
; Behar DM, Yunusbayev B, Metspalu M, Metspalu E, Rosset S, Parik J, Rootsi S, Chaubey G, Kutuev I, Yudkovsky G, Khusnutdinova EK, Balanovsky O, Semino O, Pereira L, Comas D, Gurwitz D, Bonne -Tamir B, Parfitt T, Hammer MF, Skorecki K, Villems R. The genome-wide structure of the Jewish people (English) / / Nature. - 2010 Jul 8. - V. 466 (7303). - S. 238-42.
; Atzmon G, Hao L, Pe'er I, Velez C, Pearlman A, Palamara PF, Morrow B, Friedman E, Oddoux C, Burns E, Ostrer H. Abraham's children in the genome era: major Jewish diaspora populations comprise distinct genetic clusters with shared Middle Eastern Ancestry (English) / / Am J Hum Genet. - 2010 Jun 11. - V. 86 (6). - S. 850-9.


http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гаплогруппа_K_ (mtDNA) in Europe 12 thousand years ago (10 - 20% of Jews up to 8% in the Russian north http://www.balto-slavica.com/ forum/lofiversion/index.php/t4503.html)
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гаплогруппа_H_ (mtDNA) in Europe 20 - 25 thousand years ago (the Jews 20 - 40% of the Slavs to 50% http://forum.molgen.org/index. php / topic, 445.0.html)

http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/12/1045
http://www.proza.ru/2010/10/17/372

In view of male and female haplogroup nostratiki and began forming (separation) of large modern language families history ancestors of many ethnic groups Afroevrazii now can go to a depth of 10 - 15 thousand years. Historical genoetnografiya has a story about a quarter of a century. Probably in the next few decades, it has substantially - sorry. that remind the father of perestroika - to deepen and expand our knowledge of early ethnic groups, their centuries-long interaction. In the meantime, the researchers near the beginning of the path is rapid accumulation and refinement of the facts. But here, chances for a sly foolishness HX is almost gone.
Professional science tests HX successfully withstand. It's a pity the uninformed reader.

Disputes over version of AA Klesov

In particular
Arkady Kalmanovich
Petach Tikva, Israel - at 2010-07-22 03:40:44 EDT
The article makes a strange impression. It seems that the author uses two studies to promote their theories. "DNA genealogy is positioned as a separate field of knowledge which has come to the same conclusions as the discussion of the article. All anything, but "DNA genealogy" looks like a one-man business: none other than the author himself is not quoted. Unrecognized genius? Everything is possible. But as a columnist other studies - the choice is clearly unfortunate.
Boris Altshuler, E.
Berlin, Germany - at 2010-07-21 14:50:29 EDT
Dear Mr. Klyosov,
I read with interest your article. Already in 2006, Dr. Doron Behar (Dr. Doron Behar - The Genographic Project) of the University Hospital, Rambam in Haifa, Israel announced the passage of genetic research, according to which Ashkenazi Jews, in my view is somewhat controversial, is derived from four foremothers. A year later, in 2007 published a work of an American journalist John Intyre (Entire, Jon: Abraham `s Children - Abraham; s Children: Race, Identity, and the DNA of the Chosen Peaple, 2007), compiled the results of several international today generally accepted bulk of genetic studios Ashkenazi Jews, in light of discussions which are especially German readers passionately interested in one question the analysis of DNA mitohondralnoy Ashkenazi Jews: with a time of Ashkenazi Jews are descended from German women?

Because it is relevant to your publication, we can assume that the process of inter-ethnic contacts has at least 2,000 years, ie since the time of the German Travel yutungskih Scythians and almani / Alamanov, translated from the Hebrew "widowers". About 40% of the ancestors of modern Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the median (and "Khazar"?) Women, which meant in the Rhine region at the time of Charlemagne and the Great Steppe.
This story has striking parallels with the Biblical story of Ruth Moabitess, among other things, great-grandmother of biblical King David. According to this information somewhere in 80% of today's Ashkenazi Jews today are descendants of the "Route" from the Rhine and the Great Steppe. Unfortunately your current article, I have not received a clear answer to the question of the genomes of Ashkenazi women. In addition, I would like to ask: what with the genomes of "Khazar" in southern Russia and the "accident" in Central and Southeastern Europe? After all, their graves have long been archaeologically investigated, and the definition of genomes not be easy.
Your comments on the Finno-Finns I was somewhat surprised, since, as far as I know, prior to 2006 were conducted extensive research "of the genome Russian", which showed that 60% -70% (?) "Russian" threat of DNA are -Finnish nature. This information is provided by the Internet in some publications, such as nesobrazuetsya with your findings on the genetics of the Finno-Finns.
Read your article with great pleasure. From my point of view would have been desirable lisch possibly even more clear conclusions. This applies to the rest of your already published works.

About the fact that 60% -70% (?) "Russian" DNA is not Finno-Ugric nature, support the AA Klesov. But here's the likelihood of deeper historical roots of the Ashkenazi Jews and that "DNA genealogy" often looks like a one-man business: none other than the author himself often not quoted - is a harsh truth.


© Copyright: Peter Zolin 2, 2010
Certificate of publication number 21010181099

Аrticle in the paper, sorry for the inevitable errors and omissions


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